Bulk/cut long term diet.

[Rahf]

Ok so my old thread has been turned obsolete due to people effectively annihilating my previous plans on how to go about bulking and cutting bodyfat. I am in no way upset about it, quite the opposite.

So my new plan would involve a bulk and cut diet spanning over a year or so.
I had in mind if I would aim for bulking during one month and then observing the results, using cardio and anaerobic exercises to cut down on bodyfat for two weeks. After that I resume the bulk regime and keep going that way until I am satisfied with definition and general size.

Random question: How would you rate peanut butter as a source for fat?

My tested diet during the past week has been pretty consistent:

Breakfast: 50g of rolled oats with 2dl of milk (1,5% fat) coupled with 2-3 slices of wholegrain bread with about 100g of cottage cheese on top.

Lunch: 2 eggs, a can of tuna in water (200g), more cottage cheese!

Dinner: Random family dinner. Most often consisting of some type of meat (chicken, fish or dairy.) and normally some form of carb filled addition potatoes, pasta, rice etc. Coupled with a few slices of bread.

Evening snack: Basically the same as breakfast but in a smaller portion.

I drink whey shakes for the workouts and plan on buying L-glutamine as well as restocking on multivitamins. Any other supplements I should think about getting?

I deffo need to eat more for the bulking sessions but the question is what?

[NightHunter]

More fruits and veggies.

Sweet potatoes would be preferable to normal potatoes.

More fats would be a good idea. Flax seeds or oil, olive oil, butter(in moderation), seafood, fish oil, and mixed nuts are a few good sources. Peanut butter is good if it's natural. The ingredient list should appear as follows
Ingredients:
Peanuts, Salt(optional)

For supplements, fish oil, like I just mentioned, Greens+ if you can't manage veggies, a good multivit.

[Rahf]

More fruits and veggies.

Sweet potatoes would be preferable to normal potatoes.

More fats would be a good idea. Flax seeds or oil, olive oil, butter(in moderation), seafood, fish oil, and mixed nuts are a few good sources. Peanut butter is good if it's natural. The ingredient list should appear as follows
Ingredients:
Peanuts, Salt(optional)

For supplements, fish oil, like I just mentioned, Greens+ if you can't manage veggies, a good multivit.

Veggies are no problem, I'd say the only one I can't really take in any form is tomato. What do you think about L-glutamine as a means of recovery?
I reckon the idea is basically to keep a high calorie intake during the building month and then cut during the two weeks of fasted cardio.

[Gazapo]

natural peanut butter = Mmmm Mmmm!!

throw an extra 2 meals in between. i love the chicken parm (homemade, healthily of course) as a meal with a ton of good stuff :)

[Gazapo]

i'm not really a fan of glutamine. i think it's a waste of money, haven't ever seen results from it. but if you want to try it, go ahead. some people like it.

[Rahf]

natural peanut butter = Mmmm Mmmm!!

throw an extra 2 meals in between. i love the chicken parm (homemade, healthily of course) as a meal with a ton of good stuff :)

Hmm.. I think I'll be better off trying to produce some sort of schedule at least until I've gotten the routine of more meals a day.

I reckon excess protein won't be a problem since I hydrate myself with at least 3-4L of water a day.

[Rahf]

Tomorrow is a matter of phoning the local doctor and schedule time for a physical. Haven't had one in about.. 3 years? And in that time I've been to both Africa and Australia.
I could have HIV without knowing it!

[NightHunter]

Oh, I missed the glutamine the first read-through. I've never seen anything to support its use, except for advertisements, so I've never used it.

I would argue for interval work for cutting more than fasted cardio, but whatever you decide to do will probably give you the desired effect.
If you really wanted you could just change the loading parameters and change your resistance training scheme during cut cycles rather than do cardio.

You may also want to try a longer bulk/cut cycle than just one month and 2 weeks. You will have very small gains at that rate. I'd suggest a longer bulk and cut.

[receive]

I could have HIV without knowing it!

Enjoy the uncertainty, dude.

re: Peanut butter... nuts don't really have a great fat profile for humans. Theyre ok, but you'd do better with olive oil, fish, and grass fed animal fats (including dairy). The difference between the fat profiles of grain-fed and grass-fed animals, is huge.

I will try to post data, and other relevant links about eating etc, later when I'm not meant to be cramming. Exams starting tomorrow = lose. I like most of what Beradi preaches, though - so check out his articles on his website, and his discussion on T-nation.

[Wesker]

For bulk I have one word for you.

OOOOAAAAATTTMEEEEEEAAAAL !!!!

Yeah

[Gazapo]

For bulk I have one word for you.

OOOOAAAAATTTMEEEEEEAAAAL !!!!

Yeah

Quoted for truth.

[anfeyd]

I put whole wheat flour in my oatmeal, so it's like paste. It cheaper than just having more oatmeal hahaah.

[shengoikee]

I put whole wheat flour in my oatmeal, so it's like paste. It cheaper than just having more oatmeal hahaah.

oh man! surely that's like eating glue haha

it may be cheaper but id bear in mind there's gonna be a higher GI

[anfeyd]

I eat it for the caloric value.

[AJCN]

I'm still not sure what you want to achieve. If you want you could buy some weight gain powder or something. They add a pound of weight per week all you need to do is make sure it's in muscle and not fat but exercising. If you want to bulk just eat laods of meal a day like every 1 hr 30 minutes or every 2 hrs. I'm having problems myself so ignore me. I eat shit loads other Xmas and didn't gain any weight well bummed.

[anfeyd]

I'm still not sure what you want to achieve. If you want you could buy some weight gain powder or something. They add a pound of weight per week all you need to do is make sure it's in muscle and not fat but exercising. If you want to bulk just eat laods of meal a day like every 1 hr 30 minutes or every 2 hrs. I'm having problems myself so ignore me. I eat shit loads other Xmas and didn't gain any weight well bummed.

Incomprehensible.

[Gazapo]

http://bodybuilding.com/store/cs/cytogainer.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/jbobbet/shake.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/jbobbet/chicken_parm-1.jpg

Mmmm Mmmm!

[Rahf]

Hehe, pastaaaa!

[mr popular]

I began my bulk at your weight, and i am your height. I am doing a 6 month bulk up to 180lbs, then i'll probably get to 210lbs before cutting a little. I am currently a few months into it, weighing 165lbs.

here is the plan that will work for you:

Weight yourself at the beginning.

every 4 weeks, you must gain 5lbs. If you don't gain 5lbs, you aren't eating enough. If you gain 10lbs and look like a water buffalo, then you're eating too much OR more likely not hitting the weights enough.

how will you know how to manipulate this? Write down everything you eat, at what time, with how many calories, including the macronutrients of each food. Add them all up everyday, and they should equal at LEAST your bodyweight in pounds multiplied by 20. In your case right now, 3000. After 4 weeks, it'll be about 3200. Once you get the hang of things after a month or two you will learn what your body responds best to.

My advice is to do this for 6 months to cumulatively gain 30lbs, most of which will be muscle if you workout hard with a good plan, 4-5 days a week.

No "maintenance cutting" will be necessary, and at the end of the 6 months you can simply lower your calories and continue doing what you are doing to lose the fat. No overdosage of cardio or any of that wacky crap is necessary.

Juji has already made log sheets for keeping track of everything you need to be eating. All you need is a basic food scale that measures in grams to weigh your pasta and meats and stuff. All of that can be punched in here:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

My advice would be to focus on your major lifts per 8 weeks.

the first 8 weeks focus on your deadlift, the second 8 focus on your bench press, and the third 8 focus on your squat. Linear periodization works well here, with 4 weeks of high volume, then 4 weeks of high intensity. Strength=potential for hypertrophy. Hypertrophy=potential for strength.

you will need a solid, well-planned training program as well. It doesn't have to be complicated AT ALL, it just needs to cover the basics.

tip on training: at the end of each week, if you cumulatively have 100 reps for your upper body push muscles, 100 reps for the upper body pull muscles, and 100 reps for your leg muscles, you will be doing enough volume to grow.

This does not include any isolation exercises in your 100 cumulative reps, just big-muscle compound exercises to achieve these. And all big pushing exercises are fair game for the pushing reps. Bench, close-grip bench, overhead press, heavy dips, etc......

upper body pull=rows, chins, etc.

legs=squats, deadlifts, lunges, front squats, etc.etc..

set up your workouts accordingly to achieve this and you'll grow pretty well. Isolation exercises make good finishers, but prioritize your training to get your 100 heavy compound reps first.

and oh yeah, don't cheat...like, doing bench presses with just the BAR for like 80 reps. Make them quality reps.

AND GOOD LUCK BUDDY

i am not very experienced but i do know what works for me and exactly what my results are and how i achieved them, so i figured i could help somebody in your position =)

keep in touch on how your results go

~Brian

[Lobo]

Berardi's advice is sound, except for his occasional whimsical theories (seperating carbohydrates and fats, the notion that your body remembers how to maintain low bodyfat as a reason for periodically dieting down to very low bodyfat percentage, etc.) and when he's plugging Surge.

[Rahf]

I began my bulk at your weight, and i am your height. I am doing a 6 month bulk up to 180lbs, then i'll probably get to 210lbs before cutting a little. I am currently a few months into it, weighing 165lbs.

here is the plan that will work for you:

Weight yourself at the beginning.

every 4 weeks, you must gain 5lbs. If you don't gain 5lbs, you aren't eating enough. If you gain 10lbs and look like a water buffalo, then you're eating too much OR more likely not hitting the weights enough.

how will you know how to manipulate this? Write down everything you eat, at what time, with how many calories, including the macronutrients of each food. Add them all up everyday, and they should equal at LEAST your bodyweight in pounds multiplied by 20. In your case right now, 3000. After 4 weeks, it'll be about 3200. Once you get the hang of things after a month or two you will learn what your body responds best to.

My advice is to do this for 6 months to cumulatively gain 30lbs, most of which will be muscle if you workout hard with a good plan, 4-5 days a week.

No "maintenance cutting" will be necessary, and at the end of the 6 months you can simply lower your calories and continue doing what you are doing to lose the fat. No overdosage of cardio or any of that wacky crap is necessary.

Juji has already made log sheets for keeping track of everything you need to be eating. All you need is a basic food scale that measures in grams to weigh your pasta and meats and stuff. All of that can be punched in here:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

My advice would be to focus on your major lifts per 8 weeks.

the first 8 weeks focus on your deadlift, the second 8 focus on your bench press, and the third 8 focus on your squat. Linear periodization works well here, with 4 weeks of high volume, then 4 weeks of high intensity. Strength=potential for hypertrophy. Hypertrophy=potential for strength.

you will need a solid, well-planned training program as well. It doesn't have to be complicated AT ALL, it just needs to cover the basics.

tip on training: at the end of each week, if you cumulatively have 100 reps for your upper body push muscles, 100 reps for the upper body pull muscles, and 100 reps for your leg muscles, you will be doing enough volume to grow.

This does not include any isolation exercises in your 100 cumulative reps, just big-muscle compound exercises to achieve these. And all big pushing exercises are fair game for the pushing reps. Bench, close-grip bench, overhead press, heavy dips, etc......

upper body pull=rows, chins, etc.

legs=squats, deadlifts, lunges, front squats, etc.etc..

set up your workouts accordingly to achieve this and you'll grow pretty well. Isolation exercises make good finishers, but prioritize your training to get your 100 heavy compound reps first.

and oh yeah, don't cheat...like, doing bench presses with just the BAR for like 80 reps. Make them quality reps.

AND GOOD LUCK BUDDY

i am not very experienced but i do know what works for me and exactly what my results are and how i achieved them, so i figured i could help somebody in your position =)

keep in touch on how your results go

~Brian

Sounds pretty nifty, right now I haven't bothered to actually weigh my food, I do have scales though and it sounds to you as if it would be a good idea.
I usually go for a blended shake with apple juice, plain yoghurt, blueberries, strawberries and a banana. If I haven't or will not be able to get enough proteins during the day I usually add 25-50g of whey as well.

There's one thing I am concerned about though and that is:

During the past week of workout I've been going to the gym with a friend of mine and he absolutely refuses to go during weekends. The thing is we fit 4 days of training into the weekdays and then push two major muscle groups for every workout. He also firmly believes in the 'super sets' if you know what that is.

My concern is mainly if the muscles will get their well needed rest inbetween workouts or if it won't matter since we work different groups everyday.

Oh and don't worry about cheating, I hate doing high rep counts since it takes forever!

We normally do 70-80% lifts of our maximum for any given exercise and then do 6-8 reps divided on 3-4 sets. Will that still benefit tricking?
I asked him about it and he said that 6-8 reps is the optimal set for hypertrophy, strength and endurance and the same time.

I'll have a chat with him about high volume, high intensity training.
At least now I have provided everyone with a good amount of things to answer and reflect on :wicked:

[receive]

every 4 weeks, you must gain 5lbs. If you don't gain 5lbs, you aren't eating enough.

thats too much, imo. I wouldn't want to gain more than 1-2lbs a month tbh. But maybe for "beginners" 5lbs is reasonable. Everyone should note how much fat they're gaining and adjust their eating accordingly - don't aim for a particular number of lbs gained at any cost.

[anfeyd]

For a straight out bulk, without regard to fat gain, atleast 1 lb a week is a good measure.

[AJCN]

It's hard to bulk if you do capoeira it's fucking too much of a cardio workout :'(

[anfeyd]

Your'e just a pansy when it comes to eating.

[AJCN]

of course! do you even buy ur food?

[anfeyd]

I buy my own supplements- whey, dextrose and some foods, brewers yeast, psyllium husk, flax seed, and all dairy products I consume (mostly milk and cheeses, cottage cheese)

[Snowbuddha]

i put on some weight this summer, about 7 kilos, bear in mind i was coming off a cut so alot of rebound. made progress, look better, but i'm gonna keep at it since i still see abs clearly (when flexed). i used a gainer and some creatine citrate. this time i'm thinking about spending my hard-earned cash mostly on more meat plus protein powder or treat myself to some other flashy supplement.

[mr popular]

Sounds pretty nifty, right now I haven't bothered to actually weigh my food, I do have scales though and it sounds to you as if it would be a good idea.
I usually go for a blended shake with apple juice, plain yoghurt, blueberries, strawberries and a banana. If I haven't or will not be able to get enough proteins during the day I usually add 25-50g of whey as well.

There's one thing I am concerned about though and that is:

During the past week of workout I've been going to the gym with a friend of mine and he absolutely refuses to go during weekends. The thing is we fit 4 days of training into the weekdays and then push two major muscle groups for every workout. He also firmly believes in the 'super sets' if you know what that is.

My concern is mainly if the muscles will get their well needed rest inbetween workouts or if it won't matter since we work different groups everyday.

Oh and don't worry about cheating, I hate doing high rep counts since it takes forever!

We normally do 70-80% lifts of our maximum for any given exercise and then do 6-8 reps divided on 3-4 sets. Will that still benefit tricking?
I asked him about it and he said that 6-8 reps is the optimal set for hypertrophy, strength and endurance and the same time.

I'll have a chat with him about high volume, high intensity training.
At least now I have provided everyone with a good amount of things to answer and reflect on :wicked:


There isn't really any benefit to supersetting exercises when bulking because its just a fitness endeavor... And it will burn more calories than you want, because you probably aren't eating enough anyhow. Which is why I am telling you to weigh the grams of your food. I'm not really SUGGESTING it, I'm saying it is probably what you will have to do if you really want to gain the weight, because it is fool-proof.

(not that you're a fool, you seem like an alright guy to me...)

What muscle groups do you work together when you go to the gym?

I work two muscle groups a day when i work out. Chest/biceps, Back/calves, Shoulders/triceps, Quads/Hamstrings

it will work IF you are getting enough stimulation for your muscles. My recommendation is to follow the 100 cumulative weekly reps tip i gave you. It will work if you have the balls to do it.

your set/rep perameters are good but it never hurts to mix it up a little.. my main suggestion tho is that you just figure out some form of PROGRESSION... i mean you don't want to lift the same at the end of a bulk as you did in the beginning, and it only happens "naturally" for some things. Most things you have to plan your improvements or you'll just be treading water

So don't try to drown a cloud! Use progressions! Set progress, rep progress, hell even a linear strength progression where you just add 5-10lbs to an exercise every week.

And also, not all muscle is composed the same way. 5 sets of 6 reps may be optimatal for your stiff-leg deadlifts, but for chinups, or biceps curls, or calf raises it very well may not be. Don't be afraid of variation in your reps, and going to failure on small movements is okay and i actually recommend it. (things like dumbbell kickbacks, leg extensions, and bicep curls. But get your 100 compound reps first.)

I have a question for you though...

how big is your friend? haha I would like to know just how buff this foundant of knowledge is, because in my experience its the small, spiteful guys that keep other people down, and they usually do it unintentionally but its still a problem.

Of course if he's totally muss then its good to listen to him. Otherwise, he may not have the same goals as you, and he most likely does not have the same body that responds to the same stuff (or is his responding at all?)

anyhoo! Hope this helps, I'm happy to answer questions =)

and as for the other posters, 5lbs a month is a good weight gain. I say this from personal experience, you will not get fat. You will gain fat, but i still maintain being able to see most of my abs this way. Haha. So balls to you guys

~Brian

[Gazapo]

Hehe, pastaaaa!

and chicken (on the top part of the plate, under that bit of sauce ;)

[anfeyd]

Of course if he's totally muss then its good to listen to him.

No.



and as for the other posters, 5lbs a month is a good weight gain. I say this from personal experience, you will not get fat. You will gain fat, but i still maintain being able to see most of my abs this way. Haha. So balls to you guys

I said 'atleast' 1 lb, rock_ten disagreed with you. Also, being that you are so ultimately experienced, everyone adheres to your knowledge.

[Rahf]

and chicken (on the top part of the plate, under that bit of sauce ;)

Oh my goodness! What is that sauce by the way? It looks part obnoxious and part very good. I can't really make up my mind :tongue:

[Rahf]

There isn't really any benefit to supersetting exercises when bulking because its just a fitness endeavor... And it will burn more calories than you want, because you probably aren't eating enough anyhow. Which is why I am telling you to weigh the grams of your food. I'm not really SUGGESTING it, I'm saying it is probably what you will have to do if you really want to gain the weight, because it is fool-proof.

(not that you're a fool, you seem like an alright guy to me...)

What muscle groups do you work together when you go to the gym?

I work two muscle groups a day when i work out. Chest/biceps, Back/calves, Shoulders/triceps, Quads/Hamstrings

it will work IF you are getting enough stimulation for your muscles. My recommendation is to follow the 100 cumulative weekly reps tip i gave you. It will work if you have the balls to do it.

your set/rep perameters are good but it never hurts to mix it up a little.. my main suggestion tho is that you just figure out some form of PROGRESSION... i mean you don't want to lift the same at the end of a bulk as you did in the beginning, and it only happens "naturally" for some things. Most things you have to plan your improvements or you'll just be treading water

So don't try to drown a cloud! Use progressions! Set progress, rep progress, hell even a linear strength progression where you just add 5-10lbs to an exercise every week.

And also, not all muscle is composed the same way. 5 sets of 6 reps may be optimatal for your stiff-leg deadlifts, but for chinups, or biceps curls, or calf raises it very well may not be. Don't be afraid of variation in your reps, and going to failure on small movements is okay and i actually recommend it. (things like dumbbell kickbacks, leg extensions, and bicep curls. But get your 100 compound reps first.)

I have a question for you though...

how big is your friend? haha I would like to know just how buff this foundant of knowledge is, because in my experience its the small, spiteful guys that keep other people down, and they usually do it unintentionally but its still a problem.

Of course if he's totally muss then its good to listen to him. Otherwise, he may not have the same goals as you, and he most likely does not have the same body that responds to the same stuff (or is his responding at all?)

anyhoo! Hope this helps, I'm happy to answer questions =)

and as for the other posters, 5lbs a month is a good weight gain. I say this from personal experience, you will not get fat. You will gain fat, but i still maintain being able to see most of my abs this way. Haha. So balls to you guys

~Brian

We haven't even had time to go full circle on the repertoire yet so I'll have to get back to you on that one. We usually do all leg activities on the same workout though.

Yer, I'm thinking of upping the weights in 2 week progressions and see what kinds of results I get.

My friend is composed like a 5 8" antropomorphic bull, more or less. He's about 195-210 lbs (can't remember for sure so that one is uncertain.)
He doesn't have the definition but he's strong and muss as hell. The definition thing is most likely the fact that he's not really on any specific type of diet.
The things he has been doing has been working for him. Now what I need to keep in mind is to stretch like a maniac as well :wink:

[rock_ten]

consider using a tried-and-tested routine (with the essential component of planned progression) like a 5x5 variation or something from Pavel. Add me on msn or e-mail me, and I'll send you Beyond Bodybuilding. Or you could post again in 2008 saying "right, this year I'm going to make some progress!"

[iMagnusX]

is combining aerobic/anaerobic exercise together (i.e. strength training plus running, sprints, boxing, etc.) a compromise to both?

I don't really want to bulk up. I would be happy with greater muscle size, but I already have a bit of excess fat anyway. I don't think adding pounds would be terribly great (bmi of 24.1). I basically want to eat healthy (at or below my daily needs, but always getting enough vitamins+minerals+protein+other stuff?) but not pack on fat.

is it possible to put on muscle while losing fat? or do you have to gain weight (muscle + some fat) and then lose it(fat + a tiny muscle)?

[mr popular]

anfeyd: It is a good idea to pay attention to what those bigger and stronger than you are doing. Also, I did not say I was very experienced. In fact i've said plenty of times I am not advanced, but the whole point of my suggestions were that I am about his height, began my bulk at his weight, and I know exactly what has worked for me and probably what will work for him as well. SO LETS NOT ARGUE, LETS MAKE LOVE!

rock_ten: Why are you so in love with Pavel!? The guy might be strong in powerlifting for his size, sure, but have you seen him? He is not very big at all. I would not take advice on how to put on muscle from a guy less muscular than me. Know what i mean?

iMagnusX: the chances are overwhelmingly against you if you try to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Pick one, then the other. Preferably, gain muscle, then lose fat. If you don't eat tons of food and workout very intensely for a long time, you won't "bulk up". YOU WILL NOT WAKE UP ONE DAY, AND SAY TO YOURSELF "OH NO, I WENT OVERBOARD AND NOW I'M HUGE!!!" Trust me. I wish it were that easy...

Rahf: Basically... consistency, nutrition, intensity, and progression are key here. Keep us updated on how your progress goes!

~Brian

[Gazapo]

Oh my goodness! What is that sauce by the way? It looks part obnoxious and part very good. I can't really make up my mind :tongue:

Just some marinara sauce. SO tasty! :)

[anfeyd]

anfeyd: It is a good idea to pay attention to what those bigger and stronger than you are doing. Also, I did not say I was very experienced. In fact i've said plenty of times I am not advanced, but the whole point of my suggestions were that I am about his height, began my bulk at his weight, and I know exactly what has worked for me and probably what will work for him as well. SO LETS NOT ARGUE, LETS MAKE LOVE!


Some people that are bigger/stronger have different bodily signaling (hormones), which can make all the difference. What works for someone will not work for someone else all of the time.

[iMagnusX]

um, ok. I'm not worried about getting huge. actually that would be great. I just don't want to put on a ton of fat in the process. It seems like bulking up involves putting on lots of weight (both fat and muscle) and then having to burn the fat off. Could I burn fat on the way, or will I completely compromise muscle gains (strength, size, power)?

[Lobo]

It's gonna be detrimental to your results if you try to lose bodyfat and gain muscle at the same time, however ignore people that advise you to not give a shit about fat gain. In the long term, if you're striving to have both muscle and low bodyfat then the most productive way to go about it is a clean bulk, gaining as little fat as possible then short cutting cycles. Rather than just eating everything in site, getting fat as fuck then having to spend 18 weeks losing it again.

[rock_ten]

Lobo is right. I don't really agree with the growing "recomp" party. Eating consistently hypercalorically, then a fast/short cut, is best imo. One can drop fat so fast really. When I cut I use 1-2000 calorie deficit per day. Theres some interesting threads on M&M about that - how very high calorie deficits over a short term, won't infact lead to ANY muscle/strength loss with proper training. You can certainly have alternate days of eating ~500cals and drop a few lbs of fat a week :good:


rock_ten: Why are you so in love with Pavel!? The guy might be strong in powerlifting for his size, sure, but have you seen him? He is not very big at all. I would not take advice on how to put on muscle from a guy less muscular than me. Know what i mean?

Because DragonDoor and Pavel's books (which are freely available, importantly), are one of the few internet sources I can think of for concise and useful advice on how to train, that actually give all the information you need. DragonDoor's % of highly successful members is unusually high for a forum of this type.

As for gaining muscle - I expect that there are more direct and faster ways than Pavel's methods - although he doesn't just talk about strength. The basic concept, that I like, is to not come to some comprimise of doing sets of 6 or whatever, but to train heavy low-rep sets first in a workout, then fill up with whatever volume you want afterwards.

Rahf doesn't sound like he has much of a plan or understanding of why he's doing what he is. I think it would help to use some kind of tried-and-tested basis for your training.

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm is a great site - read everything on there, and consider one of the 5x5 routines. I've never heard of anyone (lots of use on BB.com) who hasn't had tremendous gains from it.

As for taking advice from someone about anything, who doesn't personally exhibit the skill/ability/feature.. I would remember to look at their "students". The analogy might be, not judging a mechanic by the car he owns, but the kinds of customers' cars you see driving out of the garage. I hate cars.

[mr popular]

Some people that are bigger/stronger have different bodily signaling (hormones), which can make all the difference. What works for someone will not work for someone else all of the time.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting otherwise.. haha.

And I don't disagree that a good way to go about gaining muscle for someone who does not want to get to 200lbs or be particularly large, would be a clean bulk. But the thing is, if someone doesn't know enough about gaining muscle to even understand the basic physiology of how the body gains muscle, or loses fat, or any of the basics about training or nutrition, suggesting a "clean bulk" would probably go over their head at this point and prove to be QUITE FUTILE. OH NO! MONKEYS WITH MACHINE GUNS!!

GAT-GAT-GAT-GAT-GAT-GAT-GAT!!!

SEE WHAT I MEAN!?

And besides, most of the people asking these questions won't eat nearly enough anyway. If they thought they were eating like a fatass, it would probably be barely enough to allow them to gain muscle--granted they aren't so lazy to constantly skip workouts, and do more than 3 exercises.

And rock_ten... like I said, Pavel and dragondoor are great if you want to get good at powerlifting or martial arts conditioning, but the goal of the original poster (as far as i could tell) was to gain muscle mass. And if you want to gain muscle mass, you should probably train in such a way that people gain muscle mass... rather than swinging kettleballs @_@

*sigh*

honestly what needs to happen is Rahf needs to just set a short-term goal and try SOMETHING and let us all know what he did and whether or not it worked for him, and why or why not. That would be lovely!

~Brian

[AJCN]

aaaaaararaaaaghgghhhhaaaa!!!! tooo muuuchhh writing...

[anfeyd]

mr_popular, why would you start someone off with such a high volume? 100 reps is quite excessive, especially if one is not used to doing such a high volume. Also, about paying attention to what bigger/stronger people are doing, aside from the hormones, you do not know what they did to get to the point they are at. What they are doing now may not be the same thing they did when they were at your level.

[rock_ten]

LOL yea, pavel == kettlebells!!!L!ol

[RayFinkle]

if that doesn't answer ur question(which im sure it did) u can always do to testosterone nation and copy paste ur post over their. those guys are loaded full of info. Just dont post a scrawny pic of urself they'll rip u to shreds!

[iMagnusX]

aright I'm 5' 5", 145 lbs. I have a decent amount of muscle (clearly scrawny compared to actually strong+big people), relative to my height I guess. I also have a bit of body fat as already said, and I'm aware that I can't turn fat into muscle (clearly). According to nutritiondata.com I need around 2400-2700 cals per day depending on if I work out or not. I generally eat as healthy as possible: salad, lean meat, oats, whole grain, fruits, vegetables, etc. I guess the answer to my question is:

continue to eat healthily. Perhaps eat more (as I'm not stacking weight on the bar every week exactly). Maybe add a pre-workout shake with whey, or if I buy it, BCAA + lucein.

Continue cardio-intensive training. I like to do jump-rope, swimming, boxing, running when I can. I fence too (5x a week).

Continue on strength training, although for fencing I'm thinking of starting a power-based training regimen, basically calisthenics + the Olympics.
Of course I have to do exercises to prepare me for the olympics because I've never done them. Continue with deadlift and start doing overhead squats, DB swings, and front squat. Then partial aspects of the compound movements (hang clean, power clean, hang snatch, I dunno there's like 15 variations). Then do that neuro-physiological and power stimulating stuff uP!

that's the plan, sound good>?

[mr popular]

anfeyd: Because that high volume will work.

And also.... what the fuck? It is a perfectly rational comment to suggest you should listen to someone who is bigger/stronger than you are.
I simply thought it would go without saying that he wouldn't be a complete moron about it.

iMagnusX: do whatever you want man! haha. Tell you what, set a goal for yourself. Maybe 4 or 5 months. Set little mini-goals along the way, etc. etc. all that stuff, know exactly what numbers you want to achieve and all of that

and just go for it. And let us know how it went for you

NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT SO GO START NOW!

NOW NOW NOW! NO MORE TALKING!

[rock_ten]

EDIT: I now see that you weren't talking to me. I'll leave the post though, because its still valid
--

1. I would not take advice on how to put on muscle from a guy less muscular than me.

2.As for taking advice from someone about anything, who doesn't personally exhibit the skill/ability/feature.. I would remember to look at their "students". The analogy might be, not judging a mechanic by the car he owns, but the kinds of customers' cars you see driving out of the garage. I hate cars.

3.what the fuck? It is a perfectly rational comment to suggest you should listen to someone who is bigger/stronger than you are.

When you review the above three quotes, in order of posting, you'll see that the third is actually not saying the same thing as the first. The second (my quote) is addressing the first. You then retort with a different position, against which I have made no objection (yet). Be specific in what you say and mean.

I maintain that a person's own skill level should not determine whether or not you take advice from them. One can know how to make other people awesome, without being awesome themself. Otherwise the Coaches would be competing, not the athletes they train.

Just to clarify for you, I am not saying that one should ignore anyone who is better than you. I am saying that you should not ignore those who aren't better than you.

---------------


iMagnusX: do whatever you want man! haha. Tell you what, set a goal for yourself. Maybe 4 or 5 months. Set little mini-goals along the way, etc. etc. all that stuff, know exactly what numbers you want to achieve and all of that

and just go for it. And let us know how it went for you

NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT SO GO START NOW!

NOW NOW NOW! NO MORE TALKING!

you seem to be opposed to discussion and planning of HOW to train.. why? Even better than going to the gym without a clue and fucking around with curls and side raises, then reporting back in 5 months.. is going to the gym to do a USEFUL routine for that time.

A few days spent thinking about it and deciding to do something that works is more important than omfgjuststarttrainingRIGHTNOWWWWW

[Lobo]

if that doesn't answer ur question(which im sure it did) u can always do to testosterone nation and copy paste ur post over their. those guys are loaded full of info.
They're mostly full of faux-machismo and bullshit.

[anfeyd]

anfeyd: Because that high volume will work.

It will work for who? You? I personally detest high volume, espically that high. It doesn't work well for me.


And also.... what the fuck? It is a perfectly rational comment to suggest you should listen to someone who is bigger/stronger than you are.
I simply thought it would go without saying that he wouldn't be a complete moron about it.

Again, read my post above. Individualism.

MagnusX: do whatever you want man! haha. Tell you what, set a goal for yourself. Maybe 4 or 5 months. Set little mini-goals along the way, etc. etc. all that stuff, know exactly what numbers you want to achieve and all of that

This is why your advice is garbage. Magnus wants to train for a specific sport (i'm assuming that is his goal), he should have exercises ranging from general to sport specific. If he wants peak performance he should put a lot of thought into his training, starting with more general exercises than sport specific exercises (although not totally eliminating them), then gradually taper into more intensive sport specific exercises with less general. Telling someone who is training for a sport to, 'do what they want' is telling someone to waste their time. Magnus may heed your advice, and go balls to the wall on olympic weighlifting, but that is not going to make him a word class fencer because he has no sport specific exercises.

No, I'm not familiar with fencing, and my level of knowledge is not great enough to recommend Magnus with anything, so I dont.

I would not take advice on how to put on muscle from a guy less muscular than me.

In that case, you are the last person I would listen to judging from former pictures of you.

[Rahf]

Ok, seeing as this thread has taken a serious of turns and twists I'd like to pop in here and tell you what is currently going down.

This week has been gym sessions pretty much non-stop (Monday - wednesday, rest thursday and then friday-saturday again). With two muscle groups being worked on every session. The whole body having gotten a workout at the end of the week.
I am trying to focus on squats, deadlifts and generally free-weight exercises (love lifting free weights). My progression will basically consist of me chucking on more weights afterr every week and successfully pulling off the amount of reps I have set out to push (6-8 reps in 3-4 sets). That's the general idea for me at least.

Nutrition wise I have yet to use the scales extensively. I do use them but it varies from day to day with the schedule. If the family cooks the meals I generally just try to eat a bigger load then I would normally.
I have successfully cut out EVERY type of snack, soft drink, junk food possible. I normally prep a shake for the day consisting of various fruits and veggies, I also toss in a random juice (some cheap juice from concentrate.) and plain yoghurt (sugar free!)
I also add the daily dose of vitamins and protein supplement into this shake which is consumed during the day (if on a workout day, one shake inbetween breakfast and lunch and then one shake post-workout.)
I eat ALOT of proteins during the course of the day, still need to write up a meal schedule so I can have a set meal that needs cooking. I find impulsive meals to be pretty much the same stuff (lots of protein and not much else.)

Concerning flax oil: Any good ways to ingest this? Mix into the shake perhaps? I find that my taste buds really kicked in the panic button when I tried that and decided that I need a new plan of attack on that part.

That's the update so far.

Being so early into the program I have yet to see results but I'll keep you posted on weight and strength gains.

[rock_ten]

can you give us full detail of your training? you kept a log of it, presumably? Even if you don't know what you're going to do now, knowing what you did do in the past is very useful in deciding what works and what doesn't.

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

did I give that link already? Read it, dude. Its a very good introduction to weight training. Do read it.

[Rahf]

can you give us full detail of your training? you kept a log of it, presumably? Even if you don't know what you're going to do now, knowing what you did do in the past is very useful in deciding what works and what doesn't.

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

did I give that link already? Read it, dude. Its a very good introduction to weight training. Do read it.

I have checked on the link and spent about 40 minutes reading through the different theories etc. I am taking my time reading up on proper technique when it comes to the powerlifts as well.

I will take you up on exercise logging. I need to find the various english pronounciations for the exercises first though :wink: They're not even remotely called the same in swedish (well ok, some are).
A random example: Squats = kneebend in a direct swedish translation.

Give me some time and I'll provide additional info. Trust me when I say that I work with high intensity and that I can feel it the day after :tongue:

[anfeyd]

I wouldnt be concerned with weighing your food. Look at the serving size and just ballpark it based on how many calories you are aiming for. Every 4 weeks or so I would de-load as well.

[Rahf]

I wouldnt be concerned with weighing your food. Look at the serving size and just ballpark it based on how many calories you are aiming for. Every 4 weeks or so I would de-load as well.

Right, I may keep a constant question mark look but you'll have to elaborate on the 'de-load' part for me. I think I know what you're getting at but still. Best to be certain :cool:

[mr popular]

rock_ten: I think that idea is faulty because nobody here is looking for a personal trainer, the OP just wants to gain muscle mass so the smartest thing to do would be to listen to people that have already achieved that goal. Why listen to somebody like Pavel who has never gained a substantial amount of muscle mass and has no desire to? And just how many bodybuilders has he created? I'm not bashing anybody for what they are actually good at but this is about just being rational in the resources you choose to have.

Anfeyd: First of all, it is more important that iMagnusX just do SOMETHING rather than nothing while waiting for some internet guru to lay out the perfect program. If he wanted to be a world-class athlete right now, he would hire world-class coach. But he doesn't, he just wants to get fit so i suggest he sets a goal for himself and tries to achieve it, and just see what happens. OH NO, 5 MONTHS OF HIS LIFE IS LOST!! Not lost, just spent learning. If he didn't achieve his goal, then he will learn from that lesson. BETTER THAN WASTING HIS TIME ON THE INTERNET

Secondly, I wanted to help the OP because i began at the exact same weight, and am nearly the exact same height. The chances of what i layed out working for him are pretty high, especially since he is a beginner and its a very simple program that requires only dedication and consistency.

Rahf: in spite of how this thread seems to have taken a turn for the retarded, you continue to pretty much do all the right things. haha.

learning proper technique is very important. eating a lot is very important. And working out frequently and with consistency, and a good plan of progression is very important.

would you do better if you weighed your food and kept a log? Sure. Would you do better if you used more than a totally linear weight progression? Sure. But the best program in the world is completely useless if you don't have the balls and the desire to just do it. So I just hope you stick with things, and let us know how they go for you

~Brian

[Rahf]

rock_ten: I think that idea is faulty because nobody here is looking for a personal trainer, the OP just wants to gain muscle mass so the smartest thing to do would be to listen to people that have already achieved that goal. Why listen to somebody like Pavel who has never gained a substantial amount of muscle mass and has no desire to? And just how many bodybuilders has he created? I'm not bashing anybody for what they are actually good at but this is about just being rational in the resources you choose to have.

Anfeyd: First of all, it is more important that iMagnusX just do SOMETHING rather than nothing while waiting for some internet guru to lay out the perfect program. If he wanted to be a world-class athlete right now, he would hire world-class coach. But he doesn't, he just wants to get fit so i suggest he sets a goal for himself and tries to achieve it, and just see what happens. OH NO, 5 MONTHS OF HIS LIFE IS LOST!! Not lost, just spent learning. If he didn't achieve his goal, then he will learn from that lesson. BETTER THAN WASTING HIS TIME ON THE INTERNET

Secondly, I wanted to help the OP because i began at the exact same weight, and am nearly the exact same height. The chances of what i layed out working for him are pretty high, especially since he is a beginner and its a very simple program that requires only dedication and consistency.

Rahf: in spite of how this thread seems to have taken a turn for the retarded, you continue to pretty much do all the right things. haha.

learning proper technique is very important. eating a lot is very important. And working out frequently and with consistency, and a good plan of progression is very important.

would you do better if you weighed your food and kept a log? Sure. Would you do better if you used more than a totally linear weight progression? Sure. But the best program in the world is completely useless if you don't have the balls and the desire to just do it. So I just hope you stick with things, and let us know how they go for you

~Brian

I'll say big thanks for the morale boost and also point a finger at all you guys. I really appreciate all your help but perhaps a simple thing to at least keep in mind when posting your tips and such:

No specific way of training is the BEST! Even though I know different methods have worked for you. There are always contradictions and other methods that have worked for other people. I will keep making adjustments to my program if needs be and I will definitely keep what you have all written in mind.

A thing to bear in mind: Don't be so aggressive when people come with what they perceive as corrections to what you have stated earlier. Discuss with them and cross-check with other sources before jumping to conclusions.

There's been a good debate going on here so far with slightly heated arguments at times. Keep it alive guys, we all learn :wink:

rock_ten: I'll try to remember the exercise log for next week.

[anfeyd]

Anfeyd: First of all, it is more important that iMagnusX just do SOMETHING rather than nothing while waiting for some internet guru to lay out the perfect program. If he wanted to be a world-class athlete right now, he would hire world-class coach. But he doesn't, he just wants to get fit so i suggest he sets a goal for himself and tries to achieve it, and just see what happens. OH NO, 5 MONTHS OF HIS LIFE IS LOST!! Not lost, just spent learning. If he didn't achieve his goal, then he will learn from that lesson. BETTER THAN WASTING HIS TIME ON THE INTERNET


My comments were made in an incorrect context. I mis-read Mangus's post, he doesn't really post a goal in his post. I would encourage him to do some research on olympic lifts and their loads/parameters. For example, he might be doing high reps (4x8-10), and his goal may be based on the incorrect loading parameters for his set exercises. Of course this is general, but a lot of people make the mistake completly eliminating the purpose of olympic lifts.

You can't acheive a goal unless you know what the hell you are doing. He would waste 5 months of his life when he could have taken an hour to do some research which would essentially up his progress by 5 months.

"Training is efficient if the highest sports result is achieved with the least expense of time and energy."

[mr popular]

That WOULD be fine except that perameters and load are practically null terms when it comes to a complete beginner that has simply nowhere to go but forward.

I also think it's a bad idea to prescribe olympic lifts to a complete beginner because the chances of them doing the exercises incorrectly are so high..

Rahf: I'm glad you're not a moron. I'm sure you'll achieve your goals.

and I don't think anfeyd and myself have ever liked each other for whatever reason.. haha.

[Gazapo]

No specific way of training is the BEST! Even though I know different methods have worked for you. There are always contradictions and other methods that have worked for other people. I will keep making adjustments to my program if needs be and I will definitely keep what you have all written in mind.


YES! This is the most important thing :) What works for one may not work for another - so take everything into consideration when designing your own program. Also experiment with different things to find what works best for your body as well. I'll put a nice fruitful post up sometime, but I'm really tired and time for bed...:good:

[iMagnusX]

My comments were made in an incorrect context. I mis-read Mangus's post, he doesn't really post a goal in his post. I would encourage him to do some research on olympic lifts and their loads/parameters. For example, he might be doing high reps (4x8-10), and his goal may be based on the incorrect loading parameters for his set exercises. Of course this is general, but a lot of people make the mistake completly eliminating the purpose of olympic lifts.

You can't acheive a goal unless you know what the hell you are doing. He would waste 5 months of his life when he could have taken an hour to do some research which would essentially up his progress by 5 months.

"Training is efficient if the highest sports result is achieved with the least expense of time and energy."

You're right. I have no specific goals. I just try to work out, and try to have as complete and cool of a program as possible. I think my training could definately carry over into fencing, but probably the most important thing there is all the sport-specific drills, strategies, etc. (actually getting good). There are fat dudes who could kick the crap out of me. I guess my general goal is being really in shape, strong, more muscle + less fat, more flexibile, strong heart (although it seems like I lose cardiovascular shape a lot faster than muscle, so that's not so fun).

The practical thing here is low-rep Olympic lifts? What kind of set x rep scheme would be best for power? for learning?

I think I'll have to take a few weeks to do DB swings, overhead squats, deadlifts, and front squats to get accustomed to some of the moves, and then I guess just practice the olympics with just the bar also?

Also, I haven't really been stacking weight on the bar. When do you know to up the poundage? I mean, sometimes I feel like I could up the volume/intensity/poundage, but then I'll just be sore for several more days (based on past experience when I thought "oh, I'll go from 3x8 squat to 6x8 squat today because I can still stand up after 3 sets")

[anfeyd]

The practical thing here is low-rep Olympic lifts? What kind of set x rep scheme would be best for power? for learning?

Singles, doubles, or triples. (1 rep, 2 reps, 3 reps- per set). The sets can vary.

I think I'll have to take a few weeks to do DB swings, overhead squats, deadlifts, and front squats to get accustomed to some of the moves, and then I guess just practice the olympics with just the bar also?

Yea, most advise to practice with a broom handle or someone of the likes before even moving onto the empty bar. NightHunter told me at his gym he even has plates that mimic the size of olympic weights, but without the actual weight to get accompanied to the starting height. I'd do a little more research as well, here is a website Acid Hell posted a while back. I saved it, but I didnt go through it much. http://tomgorman.moonfruit.com/hookgrip

Also, I haven't really been stacking weight on the bar. When do you know to up the poundage? I mean, sometimes I feel like I could up the volume/intensity/poundage, but then I'll just be sore for several more days (based on past experience when I thought "oh, I'll go from 3x8 squat to 6x8 squat today because I can still stand up after 3 sets")

I learned to be aggressive with upping the bar weight. Upping volume would be based on what you want to accomplish. I'd always try to keep the intensity high unless it is a deload week, or scheduled day of light training.