Natural Talent vs Sheer Determination

[slim-grim]

For a while now I've been thinking about this more and more. I'm wondering if for the tricking greats (you know the ones), their prowess is a result of an undying love of tricking and thus a huge amount of determination, or its a result of the natural talent they were blessed with? Probably a mix of both, and so in what measure? Which outweighs the other?

Which then leads to the question: Is there any hope for people like me, the physically retarded, the uncoordinated, the unfit? Can I ever hope to acheive tricking greatness if all I can ever rely on is my own determination and love of tricking? Does this even matter?

I really would love some answers on this, as I'm now faced with the reality of my suckiness, and it's so hard to keep tricking when I know I'm never going to be all that good. I'd like to think that talent doesn't matter, that anyone can become a respectable tricker if they try hard enough. But now I'm not sure if theres any future for me here...

Help?

[DarkXacreD]

there's nothing you can't work your way up to.

cheer up, emo kid.

[slim-grim]

Ah yes do excuse my emo-ness, being injured brings out the worst in me...

[skywalker]

Hmm... Much better than me, and also 4 years younger...

*Becomes emo*

[Reim]

Natural comes into play because those people can see what they need to do, analyse it, then do it. Either conciously or not.

You can train yourself to do that pretty easily (at least on a theorectical level, maybe not to put it in action).

[shengoikee]

Natural comes into play because those people can see what they need to do, analyse it, then do it. Either conciously or not.

You can train yourself to do that pretty easily (at least on a theorectical level, maybe not to put it in action).

yah you can get better at that i think

years ago i couldnt even do a cartwheel haha

[slim-grim]

Hahaha cmon skywalker by the look of your trick list you're already way better than me...

Ok after re-reading the first post I think what I was trying to say came out wrong, forget the fact that I suck. Take Sessh for example, the guy is freakin amazing! What I'm wondering is, is this because:

A. He's just incredibly talented and it comes easily to him.

B. He loves tricking more than any other activity, and has commited himself to constantly improving.

or most likely

C. Its a mix of A and B. But which is more prominant is good trickers? Characteristic A, or characteristic B?

Thats what I'm trying to get at more than my suckage...

[Yuri]

it seems like all of these young people are learning ridiculously fast. kids who have only been tricking a few months can do cork, jackknife, swingthroughs, etc
whereas i have been tricking for two years and cannot do these fancy moves. it took me a year to get gainers.
but now i am starting to feel the wear of my actions and dont have the balls i used to try try new shit.

wow, this thread is depressing me. i hope all of these fast learning, able body, skinny bastards hurt themselves trying something crazy so the rest of us can catch up

[the padwan]

For a while now I've been thinking about this more and more. I'm wondering if for the tricking greats (you know the ones), their prowess is a result of an undying love of tricking and thus a huge amount of determination, or its a result of the natural talent they were blessed with? Probably a mix of both, and so in what measure? Which outweighs the other?

Which then leads to the question: Is there any hope for people like me, the physically retarded, the uncoordinated, the unfit? Can I ever hope to acheive tricking greatness if all I can ever rely on is my own determination and love of tricking? Does this even matter?

I really would love some answers on this, as I'm now faced with the reality of my suckiness, and it's so hard to keep tricking when I know I'm never going to be all that good. I'd like to think that talent doesn't matter, that anyone can become a respectable tricker if they try hard enough. But now I'm not sure if theres any future for me here...

Help?


Stop feeling sorry for yourself, we go tricking tomorrow for a decent session and you'll see

[DarkXacreD]

Hahaha cmon skywalker by the look of your trick list you're already way better than me...

Ok after re-reading the first post I think what I was trying to say came out wrong, forget the fact that I suck. Take Sessh for example, the guy is freakin amazing! What I'm wondering is, is this because:

A. He's just incredibly talented and it comes easily to him.

B. He loves tricking more than any other activity, and has commited himself to constantly improving.

or most likely

C. Its a mix of A and B. But which is more prominant is good trickers? Characteristic A, or characteristic B?

Thats what I'm trying to get at more than my suckage...

Probably C. but you can't really say which one is more prominant, because they're kinda yes/no as opposed to how much.

Doesn't matter if you're talented or no; if you don't train, you'll suck.

If you're NOT talented, but you DO train, you won't suck. Eventually you'll be really good.

If you're talented, AND train, you won't suck. Eventually you'll be really good.

Notice the repetition.

[billy]

The only natural thing that seprates people in this community would be body shape. Everything else (the natural tricker) thing, just means they've had prevoius workouts in certain area's weather it be physical or mental.

any body shape has the same potienal just at different speeds, example:

After 8 months of tricking, I still can't back tuck, I can cork, I recently got my b-twists, Heck I can almost standing full.
I'm 186cm's tall, and I weigh 68 kilo's...in pounds I think thats around 140 or something?

Now I have friend who has tricked with me since the beginning he is much shorter then me..My overall core strength is much better then his, basically beause I go to the gym and he doesn't (oh my gosh it's all about me)

He can standing back tuck with ease. Thing is, I jump X amount higher, and I can tuck harder then him. His form isn't much better then mine, this leaves body shape..to explain why he can backtuck but I can't...

[the padwan]

but I do see where you're coming from. Mahey is a perfect example. Sure he trains but he's just naturally amazing at TKD. Sure helps being 5'11" in a category of people 5'2"-5'7"

[billy]

not just height, has alot to do with body build also, I plan on doing a big write up about this. Body types and how the physics accualty works with it...wait to school go's back and ill take what I have so far into my physics teacher and see if I'm accurate enough..

[Genghis_Tron]

For a while now I've been thinking about this more and more. I'm wondering if for the tricking greats (you know the ones), their prowess is a result of an undying love of tricking and thus a huge amount of determination, or its a result of the natural talent they were blessed with? Probably a mix of both, and so in what measure? Which outweighs the other?

Which then leads to the question: Is there any hope for people like me, the physically retarded, the uncoordinated, the unfit? Can I ever hope to acheive tricking greatness if all I can ever rely on is my own determination and love of tricking? Does this even matter?

I really would love some answers on this, as I'm now faced with the reality of my suckiness, and it's so hard to keep tricking when I know I'm never going to be all that good. I'd like to think that talent doesn't matter, that anyone can become a respectable tricker if they try hard enough. But now I'm not sure if theres any future for me here...

Help?

dude, you're sixteen you've got ths thing called TIME. Just think of all the people older than you on this sight who are also just getting into tricking. Plus they say tricking has the steepest learning curve so don't get so discouraged.

[Duke_Hoff]

Dont worry about it, just train harder haha

[Kyukodo Gaz]

it seems like all of these young people are learning ridiculously fast. kids who have only been tricking a few months can do cork, jackknife, swingthroughs, etc
whereas i have been tricking for two years and cannot do these fancy moves. it took me a year to get gainers.
but now i am starting to feel the wear of my actions and dont have the balls i used to try try new shit.

wow, this thread is depressing me. i hope all of these fast learning, able body, skinny bastards hurt themselves trying something crazy so the rest of us can catch up

How many of those will be left 9 years later..? not many! those people that work harder at the techniques will often (not always) be the ones who really appreciate what they achieve. I am someone without natural ability, I worked really hard to accomplish what I have done. For that reason, I don't want to leave it behind, I want more!

people who pick things up easily, will often appreciate them less, and are therefore much more likely to walk away...

[maxx]

scalco is one of the most natural tricksters i have ever seen. i mean how many people in this day and age has come to such a high level in such a short amount of time.

[Yuri]

touche gaz, you have made a damn good point. i will be around in 9 years assuming i have no seriously debilitating injuries.
i have already dedicated too much of myself to tricking to stop. the reason i continue to trick is so that i have something to show for the work i put in.
there are too many wankers who can only appreciate other peoples' skills, but have none of their own, and i very much do not want to be like that

in relation to the original thread, i think environment has a lot to do with it as well as training and talent. people who regularly trick with other people who are better than them or at the same level can progress faster since they will get pumped up easily and try new moves and combos. some people have regular access to a gym which helps speed up the learning process. living in a place where it is always nice weather like source in barbados is also helpful, as there is always a place to train
but i do agree with the "keep training" philosophy

[Skilzat85X]

You guys can't forget about the many years of martial arts experience that some of these people have.

[skullmyst]

lol is this whole thread a reference to Naruto?

Rock Lee was all about how someone with determination can be better than a "genious" (bad japanese-english translation :tongue: )

I will do a thousand punches, and if i cannot do that, i will do a thousand kicks, and if i cannot do that, i will do a thousand pushups....

[Duke_Hoff]

scalco is one of the most natural tricksters i have ever seen. i mean how many people in this day and age has come to such a high level in such a short amount of time.

Not in the same way but, I thought of Scalco when I read this too, but I dont get where these definitions of "natural" come from. Scalco has a team, place to train, FSNY and everyone else who he's been tricking with along the way. He's also tricked a hell of a lot more than someone like myself. I don't see the natural part, all the perfect ingrediants towards getting better are right there, along with the hard work.

[Skilzat85X]

Lalallala martial arts experience.

[sesshoumaru]

Sheer Determination always wins out in the end...

[skullmyst]

Sesshoumaru, what are the tricks in class F that you have yet to execute?

[sesshoumaru]

Leave it alone bro...it seems the more question I answer about myself, the more people hate. Where's the love?

[Scalco]

Sheer Determination always wins out in the end...


So true.

[WildArm]

i suck and i tricking and i trick like once a month

[Scott]

So true.

Haha, lies! I remember in NY 05 you had been tricking for 4 months and already were one of the best tricksters there. Excellent stuff.

Hoff, YOU GOTS THE TRICKING BUG!

[Aznjumpkick]

For a while now I've been thinking about this more and more. I'm wondering if for the tricking greats (you know the ones), their prowess is a result of an undying love of tricking and thus a huge amount of determination, or its a result of the natural talent they were blessed with? Probably a mix of both, and so in what measure? Which outweighs the other?

Which then leads to the question: Is there any hope for people like me, the physically retarded, the uncoordinated, the unfit? Can I ever hope to acheive tricking greatness if all I can ever rely on is my own determination and love of tricking? Does this even matter?

I really would love some answers on this, as I'm now faced with the reality of my suckiness, and it's so hard to keep tricking when I know I'm never going to be all that good. I'd like to think that talent doesn't matter, that anyone can become a respectable tricker if they try hard enough. But now I'm not sure if theres any future for me here...

Help?

hans started out really uncoordinated. what do u know? hahaha

[Skilzat85X]

Sheer Determination always wins out in the end...
Quite true.

Well like, just because their two sides of the same coin doesn't mean you can have them both haha. Both for the win bruh. Microwaveable.

[DarkXacreD]

Wait, isn't it also kind of a natural talent/gift to have sheer determination to begin with?

[Rain]

Not really.... Anyway I think Sheer Determination is better than natural talent any day.

[Jwizzman]

Lalallala martial arts experience.

hahahahah! that's exactly what I read :tongue:

[TKD_Andy]

natural talent will prevail, becuase then you can have natural talent AND determination.

[FatTricks]

What if you have neither?

[TKD_Andy]

you should go drink bleach.

[FatTricks]

you should go drink bleach.

WOW! Sheeesh! *wipes forehead*

Thank goodness I have BOTH.
Puahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[Matt R]

i think i have some talent and no determination ahah

not a good mix

[TKD_Andy]

lol yep. Natural talent but no determination = laziness and lack of trick variety :wink:

then again i cant really talk, i stick to whats easiest 90% of the time haha

[slim-grim]

Originally posted by Sesshoumaru
Sheer Determination always wins out in the end...
THANK YOU SESSH!! To hear from this from someone like you is really encouraging. I really wanna go out and trick now... stoopid back....

And yeah I was gonna bring up Scalco as well, I always saw him as being rediculously talented, and it seemed like he got really good really fast. I know now that with the right situation and determination, you can be as good as you want really.

[skywalker]

Hahaha cmon skywalker by the look of your trick list you're already way better than me...

Ok after re-reading the first post I think what I was trying to say came out wrong, forget the fact that I suck. Take Sessh for example, the guy is freakin amazing! What I'm wondering is, is this because:

A. He's just incredibly talented and it comes easily to him.

B. He loves tricking more than any other activity, and has commited himself to constantly improving.

or most likely

C. Its a mix of A and B. But which is more prominant is good trickers? Characteristic A, or characteristic B?

Thats what I'm trying to get at more than my suckage...

I can do these moves, mostly in the gym, and my form is terrible. You have really nice form on what you can do.

And your fronts are so much better than mine. And your backs etc etc.

[slim-grim]

Aw thanks man :smile: !!

[the padwan]

Oh yeah and in Ireland we've no where to train, we have grass fields but not a single gym. No foam pits, barely any crash mats and no other tricksters... We're on our own out here.........HELP

[Anima]

You cunt haha your well better than me ! I would kill to have tricks like aerial and double leg. :p

[Spectral]

living in a place where it is always nice weather like source in barbados is also helpful, as there is always a place to train

If Barbados is anything like Hawaii, I've got two words for you: rain.

[pete_man_man]

there is no such thing as natural talent. just people who have been training since they where 3

oh yeah, and people with balls

[TKD_Andy]

there is no such thing as natural talent

O RLY?

haha

[pete_man_man]

O RLY?

haha

poo poo

[cepopeye]

I'm definately tricking through sheer determination and no talent lmao

[wi boo]

Tricking is a mental thing, everyone in my opinion has the ability to do awesome tricks but most choose not to, i don't know why? but they are there physically but mentally they need to tweak some stuff to achieve what they want. If you put limits on yourself then you'll never become great or ya know land those tricks that you really want. For example one day i did a little grass tricking and i felt sluggish and slow and any of the moves i did felt sluggish and slow and looked "sluggggggish" and "sloooooooow" a couple of days after, i watched a vid got really pumped and suddenly, just the right muscles in my body fired at just the right time so all of my moves were clean, fast, high and powerful. i really didn't change physically in that two day time span but my mental state did, think postive dammit

[TKD_Andy]

Tricking is a mental thing, everyone in my opinion has the ability to do awesome tricks but most choose not to, i don't know why?

Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be able to do them, not the ability you moron.

[maxx]

Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be able to do them, not the ability you moron.

true to a point. Everyone has the potential to go far, some more than others. But ability of where they are in their life, can also effect peoples potentiality.

I started at 20...scalco started 1 year ago. Now he has more potential more than me to go farther. now does that mean he will..not nessisarily due to our ages. His body is still young and flexible and can take more damage at that age compared to my body which is harder to be more flexible due to the fact my joints are set in place.

[Less than Dan]

i think i have some talent and no determination ahah

not a good mix

I feel you. There are A LOT of days where I get out there and I'm like "yawn, I don't feel like trying too hard today".

I need to get my ass in gear. I try harder when I'm around people.

[kinetic]

Im too determined.
EDIT: With little talent..

[Andy Longcat]

Rock Lee

[shengoikee]

Sheer Determination always wins out in the end...
hearing this from sessh is awesome <3

[Flowers]

/limits

[TKD_Andy]

Read this carefully before posting a flaming reply etc:

Saying point blank that sheer determination will see you through is just plain wrong, otherwise everyone who was determined could triple cork etc. HOWEVER... and this is the part you need to read.

theres a vast difference between having the determination to do something right here right now (like saying you're "determined to land a boxcutter right now") and having the determination to do something in the long run. When you're talking about the long run, then yes, determination will often, not always, see you through. For example someone who is trying to do something at first, and fails. That person can either stop and try something else, or they can spend years and years trying to get it right. At the end of it its their ability to learn and adapt that will say whether they can do it or not.

Its a very, very circular argument, and i really cannot be bothered to go into it.

Bottom line is that determination in the short run, the "im gonna land this RIGHT NOW" attitude and the classic "you can do it" attitude doesnt see you through if you dont have SOME KIND of ability in the first place. In the long term, the determination to increase your ability and focus your natural talents in the right way DOES see you through.

[Dave C]

I will become the next Hokage!

BELIEVE IT!

Geez I know you guys watch Naruto

[shengoikee]

in that case all you really need is determination + intelligence haha

[TKD_Andy]

in that case all you really need is determination + intelligence haha

haha tell that to steven hawkins and hand him a skipping rope!

[shengoikee]

haha!

i retract my statement

all you need is determination + intelligence + a complete and functioning central nervous system

[TKD_Andy]

word!

[Matt R]

my attitude is pretty much if i cant do it in 5 minutes, leave it and try again in a few months

i dont know what that comes under

[Rain]

^I'm the same way
l

[FatTricks]

my attitude is pretty much if i cant do it in 5 minutes, leave it and try again in a few months

Damn you fulltwist,cork,jackknife,dleg,aerial!:ogre:

[Flowers]

my attitude is pretty much if i cant do it in 30 minutes, leave it and try again in a few weeks


That's me

[TKD_Andy]

me too. If i cant do something, or come relatively close within about 30mins ill leave it, theres no point in keeping drilling and drilling it if you're nowhere close.

But then again if do something, and land it, 90% of the time i wont bother with it again for a few months and lose the trick haha

[Xeult]

haha tell that to steven hawkins and hand him a skipping rope!

lol
Anyways, I'm with Andy to some extent. Determination is overrated. Determination is what makes you go out and train and stretch, it does not magically allow you to do a certain move. Needless to say, determination is actually what keeps you tricking, so in a way it's the most important thing, but as mentioned it'll take a whole lot more time to land a move, if your solely rely on determination. To progress fast, also as mentioned, u need to quickly and correctly analyze what you're doing and change it. Every time I read sesshs posts, I'm stunned over how much understanding he has over what he is doing. He is aware of every little motion he does and why he does it.

I think when you are able to pick up fast on what your doing wrong and make your body do it , you'll progress fast. Oh and another thing, the reason the MA guys and ppl with fancy gyms progress faster is because the MAists use many years to get control over their body. The whole "Don't let your body control you" - philosophy. The gym guys just have safer ways of experimenting with their body, without hurting it.

[WilliamT]

I am tired of seeing this thread, I did not read it all but I am going to post my opinion:
there are a small minority of people that are blessed with superior genetics, these are the people that have a lot of muscle mass and a high vert but they never work out. I despise those people. They are only a very small minority though.
There are three reasons why somebody can land a trick:
1) they understand the move
2) they are not afraid to try it and commit in their attempt
3) they are coordinated, strong, and fast enough to pull it off

For the rest of us that aren't blessed with superior genetics, we have to train to become strong coordinated and fast. and how do you do that: sheer determination and hard work.

Being blessed with superior genetics is very rare so now I'm going to move on to a more common situation:

somebody progresses faster than you, and they aren't gifted with superior genetics. this happens because they have done things with their lives prior to tricking. maybe they were the star wrestler on their highschool team, or they are a blackbelt in tkd. and that is where their strength and coordination comes from. and all you did was sit on your ass your whole life, that is why somebody else progresses faster than you. And now you've got a lot of catching up to do. this is where sheer determination and hard work come in.

Here is an example of sheer determination in my life:
my best friend and I both learned to bhs on the same day. mine was crappy his was good. My friend was black, his father was a marine, his mom was a cop, and he took ninjutsu as a kid. Me, I was just lazy. I wanted to be better than him so I trained hard and practiced more than he did. He still learned a back tuck before me. I was furious. I began to dedicate my entire life to getting a better backflip than him. This is how I came across tricking. I read juji and dogen's articles on diet and training and I followed them religously...
It has been eight months, and I still train everyday and I haven't touched a touched unhealthy food since then. I am now 10x better than he is and it is all because of sheer determination and hard work.

If you work harder than somebody eventually you will become better than them.

SO DON'T MAKE A THREAD AND BITCH ABOUT IT. JUST TRAIN HARD!!!
damn this was a long post

[Flowers]

But then again if do something, and land it, 90% of the time i wont bother with it again for a few months and lose the trick haha

Hahaha that's one of the worst feelings ever.

[Snejk]

haha tell that to steven hawkins and hand him a skipping rope!

Hahaha!! That made my day.. Best post ever made on TT ._.;

To everyone saying there is no such thing as "natural talent" I got one word - bullshit. "natural talent" is just a phrase to use when you know someone has better odds but don't know (or don't want to write an essay explaining) exactly what it is.. 'natural talent' can be things like having a perfect aerial awareness right off the bat, while some (like me) have zero of it after a year of jumping around.. It can be gaining muscle extraordinarily quickly regardless of a diet consisting of one meal a day and tons of sweets/coca cola.. Everyone's body work differently.

Sheer determination and hard work will only get you so far.. Without 'natural talent' you can never be as good as those WITH 'natural talent' who works JUST as hard as you do..

[TKD_Andy]

to me, natural talent isnt the ability to pull something off first time without knowing how to do it etc, its the ability to learn at a greatly increased rate in comparison to other people. Hence why you get people like scalco who picks stuff up real fast, and juji who picks things up slowly, both are awesome, but in different ways.

[Skilzat85X]

In all honesty Natural Talent only helps out in when learning basics or certain variations of basic.

Sheer determination, ehh I'm sorta going back on what I said. It's dumb. You can be determined all you want but that doesn't mean crap.

What you need more than natural talent or sheer determination is knowledge and understanding. Well duh.

Here's what I do when I want to learn a new technique:
-Watch examples
-Observe how it works
-Think about it and how to apply it
-Try it
-If failed, analyze attempts and find problems
-Watch and compare to examples again
-Think of what needs to be fixed
-Repeat last 4 steps
-Get it
-Get it better

Well ok I guess you could say that's some sort of sheer determination haha. All you need to do is analyze. Analyze analyze analyze. Think think think. Understand understand understand. Observe observe observe the whole body and each movement and what each one of those does and how your movements or lack thereof are not allowing you to land a move.

It's eeeeez! Self-analysis is pretty much the key to landing any skill, and as long as you analyze you can understand what you're doing wrong, and you can work to fix it. It's impeccable I say!

[pete_man_man]

to me, natural talent isnt the ability to pull something off first time without knowing how to do it etc, its the ability to learn at a greatly increased rate in comparison to other people. Hence why you get people like scalco who picks stuff up real fast, and juji who picks things up slowly, both are awesome, but in different ways.

imagine if scalco worked as hard as juji did.... he would be a force to be reckoned with

[TKD_Andy]

imagine if scalco worked as hard as juji did.... he would be a force to be reckoned with

scalco's natural ability + juji's drive etc = sesshoumaru haha

[shengoikee]

uhhh i dunno iv heard scalco trains like every day or something haha.... be more accurate with your information! :ogre:

[TKD_Andy]

haha ok then replace scalco with Duke Hoff!

[the padwan]

haha tell that to steven hawkins and hand him a skipping rope!

gotta be siged

[sesshoumaru]

Hahaha!! That made my day.. Best post ever made on TT ._.;

To everyone saying there is no such thing as "natural talent" I got one word - bullshit. "natural talent" is just a phrase to use when you know someone has better odds but don't know (or don't want to write an essay explaining) exactly what it is.. 'natural talent' can be things like having a perfect aerial awareness right off the bat, while some (like me) have zero of it after a year of jumping around.. It can be gaining muscle extraordinarily quickly regardless of a diet consisting of one meal a day and tons of sweets/coca cola.. Everyone's body work differently.

Sheer determination and hard work will only get you so far.. Without 'natural talent' you can never be as good as those WITH 'natural talent' who works JUST as hard as you do..

There is a little bit of "truth" in what you say; however, I can't fully agree with you. Being a prodigy, having "natural talent", will have the greatset effect on trick development. You may be born with an athletic frame, fearless heart, and develop some focus & awareness early on in life...but what does that profit you without determination and/or ambition?

A person with heeps of "natural talent" may progress at amazing rates, learning a plethora of tricks in a relatively short amount of time...however, a person with "natural talent" will often get discouraged on the slightest obstacle that comes his way [without determination]. He may learn: C720's, Jacknifes, Hypertwists, Sideswipes, Au-Batidos, Corks, etc. and then hit "the wall" [you know, the invisible one...the slump that last 90 days too long]...struggling on "swingthrus" [cause even though he can Hypertwist, he never really had his Btwist very good]. What's gonna keep him from just calling it "quits", he's never had to work for anything in his life, and most likely...he's not going to want to [feeling that everything should just come to him automatically, and if it doesn't it's stupid].

In contrast to this, a person with little or average "natural talent" and all "heart" and determination, can surpass a person with "the gift". They are used to "busting their ass" for everything, so "the wall" is percieved as more of a "detour" [it leads to the same place, but takes a little longer].

It would be best to have both "natural talent" & "sheer determination". Aside from not being dumb, all you really need is "sheer determination" and the drive to be better [whatever that may be...it's up to you].

[FatTricks]

There is a little bit of "truth" in what you say; however, I can't fully agree with you. Being a prodigy, having "natural talent", will have the greatset effect on trick development. You may be born with an athletic frame, fearless heart, and develop some focus & awareness early on in life...but what does that profit you without determination and/or ambition?

A person with heeps of "natural talent" may progress at amazing rates, learning a plethora of tricks in a relatively short amount of time...however, a person with "natural talent" will often get discouraged on the slightest obstacle that comes his way [without determination]. He may learn: C720's, Jacknifes, Hypertwists, Sideswipes, Au-Batidos, Corks, etc. and then hit "the wall" [you know, the invisible one...the slump that last 90 days too long]...struggling on "swingthrus" [cause even though he can Hypertwist, he never really had his Btwist very good]. What's gonna keep him from just calling it "quits", he's never had to work for anything in his life, and most likely...he's not going to want to [feeling that everything should just come to him automatically, and if it doesn't it's stupid].

In contrast to this, a person with little or average "natural talent" and all "heart" and determination, can surpass a person with "the gift". They are used to "busting their ass" for everything, so "the wall" is percieved as more of a "detour" [it leads to the same place, but takes a little longer].

It would be best to have both "natural talent" & "sheer determination". Aside from not being dumb, all you really need is "sheer determination" and the drive to be better [whatever that may be...it's up to you].

WORD! Sounds like the best answer in the whole thread. I would have to say...I have "heart".

[Anima]

sessh your trick compleation is scarly green haha

[jan]

That's because it's his idea.


I agree though. Hitting the wall might be worse for someone with natural talent than for someone who's used to hitting it repeatedly.

[shengoikee]

my "wall" would be realising the only slightly advanced moves i can do are kicks :agony:

hard times

[jan]

My "wall" would be realising the only slightly advanced moves I can do are aerials.

[slim-grim]

Hmmm I think Sessh got it perfectly, people with raw talent would definately find it much more difficult to overcome an obstacle, as theyre not used to doing so. Good point, good point.

It seems making progress in tricking is majorly about your "drive", whatever it is that makes you want to go out there in the cold winters and the blazing summers alike and do your very best to better yourself. Tricking wouldn't be as enjoyable for someone who didnt have to work at it, so now I can presume that all the greats started off just like me, and that with enough drive, heart and determination I can be that freakin' good! Yesssss!!! Tricking fucking rocks!!!

/heartfelt rant

[Yuri]

agreed
tricking is something you have to consistently work on to get better, and most people do not have the drive to stick with something for so long. after all the naturally gifted people will get frustrated and quit the real tricksters will be left

[the padwan]

There is a little bit of "truth" in what you say; however, I can't fully agree with you. Being a prodigy, having "natural talent", will have the greatset effect on trick development. You may be born with an athletic frame, fearless heart, and develop some focus & awareness early on in life...but what does that profit you without determination and/or ambition?

A person with heeps of "natural talent" may progress at amazing rates, learning a plethora of tricks in a relatively short amount of time...however, a person with "natural talent" will often get discouraged on the slightest obstacle that comes his way [without determination]. He may learn: C720's, Jacknifes, Hypertwists, Sideswipes, Au-Batidos, Corks, etc. and then hit "the wall" [you know, the invisible one...the slump that last 90 days too long]...struggling on "swingthrus" [cause even though he can Hypertwist, he never really had his Btwist very good]. What's gonna keep him from just calling it "quits", he's never had to work for anything in his life, and most likely...he's not going to want to [feeling that everything should just come to him automatically, and if it doesn't it's stupid].

In contrast to this, a person with little or average "natural talent" and all "heart" and determination, can surpass a person with "the gift". They are used to "busting their ass" for everything, so "the wall" is percieved as more of a "detour" [it leads to the same place, but takes a little longer].

It would be best to have both "natural talent" & "sheer determination". Aside from not being dumb, all you really need is "sheer determination" and the drive to be better [whatever that may be...it's up to you].

True, also there are some elements of luck involved like:

- Injuries (especially coming up to the summer)
Getting an unfortunate injury can set you way back and even make you regress. Can occur through tricking or while walking down the stairs

- Location (nowhere to trick = nowhere to get better)
Living in the arse-hole of nowhere with no one to help you or tell you what you do wrong can be frustrating for the basics. If for the first 100 tries on a particular trick I do something very wrong, something that would be obvious to a trick buddy or to someone else in a gym. That bad habit can become hard lined into the "trick" as they would see it.

This however is only a footnote on the original post

[jan]

My town is shit for tricks. And anything else for that matter, barred soccer and volleyball.

[Kyukodo Gaz]

scalco's natural ability + juji's drive etc = sesshoumaru haha

Exactly. lol

edit: sessh post = the win.

I am al determination + hardly any ability. I'm a kick tricker for the most part, but I was even really shit at them when I was younger. I have worked and worked and worked. I'll be good someday. I know I will. I need to be. to prove myself, to me.

[Final Prophecy]

To answer this thread: If you don't have the right genetics, it does not matter how determined you are. You will never be a good tricker.

[Skilzat85X]

To answer this thread: If you don't have the right genetics, it does not matter how determined you are. You will never be a good tricker.

:good:

[Kyukodo Gaz]

Aw come on, that's not true. I can confidently say that I have seen good trickers of nearly every body type.

[FatTricks]

To answer this thread: If you don't have the right genetics, it does not matter how determined you are. You will never be a good tricker.

Aw come on, that's not true. I can confidently say that I have seen good trickers of nearly every body type.

FatTricks <------------Proof in the flesh Biatch!:wicked:

[Skilzat85X]

I don't think you guys realize we were joking haha.

[FatTricks]

I don't think you guys realize we were joking haha.

It was just a JOKE!?!

Ahhh good! <Sighs>


*Stops crying*:sad:

[Final Prophecy]

I was only joking, but I was being a bit of a realist as well.

Body type does not have as much to do with tricking potential as, what I call a "Tricking gene." A religious way of saying this is, "God made YOU a better tricker than some other guy."

To be honest, it doesn't matter what body shape or body type you have, there are just some people, no matter how hard they try, who will never achieve tricks such as the cork and the butterfly twist and double legs. They will keep practicing corks over and over again for years and years until their body finally decays due to aging. Then they will notice their attempts have become farther and farther off from landing the real trick, and they'll eventually break something.

[Kyukodo Gaz]

i don't think any of you guys will know him, but there used to be a guy who used double chuks on the international competition stage called Andrew Comrie. he was from Canvey Island and came form the same club as Chloe Bruce.

He was a big guy, but boy could he trick!!! He was competing very easily with Ashley Beck back in the day.

[Kyukodo Gaz]

In answer to your comment, I judges Anis when he was about 12-13 at the WKA world championships in Pisa in around 2001 (ish). he was competing for Team Cascade, and he crashed everything.

He has trained very hard since then.

[FatTricks]

i don't think any of you guys will know him, but there used to be a guy who used double chuks on the international competition stage called Andrew Comrie. he was from Canvey Island and came form the same club as Chloe Bruce.

He was a big guy, but boy could he trick!!! He was competing very easily with Ashley Beck back in the day.

Yay for BIG Tricksters!!!! Any footy? I'm lazy and tired right now.

[Final Prophecy]

In answer to your comment, I judges Anis when he was about 12-13 at the WKA world championships in Pisa in around 2001 (ish). he was competing for Team Cascade, and he crashed everything.

He has trained very hard since then.

That is attributed to not having proper technique, or due to him not having achieved puberty yet. He trained the technique, he got better. He always had that natural capability to land the trick in the first place, however. It may have just taken some training. He already had the potential, just not the technique. The determination aspect just taught him the technique, that's all. If you don't have that combination of both, i.e: no potential at all, you won't get anywhere tricking, very similar to other things in life.

[Kyukodo Gaz]

All I'm saying is that everyone has that potential. It's whether you choose to realise it. Body shape and genetics have nothing to do with it.

So you are big... lose weight.

Skinny... train hard, hit the weights.

Uncoordinated...(no one could have been more uncoordinated than me when I first started MA... I couldn't even forward roll!) Train hard.

Body type doesn't matter in the long run, because if you train hard you will become very good no matter what your shape/size.

[Final Prophecy]

All I'm saying is that everyone has that potential. It's whether you choose to realise it. Body shape and genetics have nothing to do with it.

So you are big... lose weight.

Skinny... train hard, hit the weights.

Uncoordinated...(no one could have been more uncoordinated than me when I first started MA... I couldn't even forward roll!) Train hard.

Body type doesn't matter in the long run, because if you train hard you will become very good no matter what your shape/size.

If FatTricks really is fat, then that contradicts your point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v84CqK2gXY0

^
This was posted in the "Share your videos section." Here is the link to the thread: http://trickstutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24234

Assuming she really is 8 years old, she most likely has started when she was 4 or 5. In 3 or 4 years time, she has achieved something that would take me 10 years to achieve, if not more, and I have a very fit physique, an above average vertical jump, and I have taken 8+ years martial arts. Hell, I may never be able to achieve some of that. And I accept that, so therefore I have taken the step that some (not all) people have to take when they consider tricking. Or perhaps I am the sole exception to your point.

[Flowers]

I agree with Gaz here. I'm not a fan of destiny.

Some people pick things up quicker, but that's purely based off of earlier events

[Skilzat85X]

I agree with Gaz here. I'm not a fan of destiny.

Some people pick things up quicker, but that's purely based off of earlier events

Mmmm no no it's not.

[Dave]

In all honesty Natural Talent only helps out in when learning basics or certain variations of basic.

Sheer determination, ehh I'm sorta going back on what I said. It's dumb. You can be determined all you want but that doesn't mean crap.

What you need more than natural talent or sheer determination is knowledge and understanding. Well duh.

Here's what I do when I want to learn a new technique:
-Watch examples
-Observe how it works
-Think about it and how to apply it
-Try it
-If failed, analyze attempts and find problems
-Watch and compare to examples again
-Think of what needs to be fixed
-Repeat last 4 steps
-Get it
-Get it better

Well ok I guess you could say that's some sort of sheer determination haha. All you need to do is analyze. Analyze analyze analyze. Think think think. Understand understand understand. Observe observe observe the whole body and each movement and what each one of those does and how your movements or lack thereof are not allowing you to land a move.

It's eeeeez! Self-analysis is pretty much the key to landing any skill, and as long as you analyze you can understand what you're doing wrong, and you can work to fix it. It's impeccable I say!

Agree agree agree!

[Dave]

All I'm saying is that everyone has that potential. It's whether you choose to realise it. Body shape and genetics have nothing to do with it.

So you are big... lose weight.

Skinny... train hard, hit the weights.

Uncoordinated...(no one could have been more uncoordinated than me when I first started MA... I couldn't even forward roll!) Train hard.

Body type doesn't matter in the long run, because if you train hard you will become very good no matter what your shape/size.

Tall grow shorter? (Visa-Versa)

[skywalker]

I have dyspraxia, which fucks your coordination up. The most extreme I ever had it was akin to being drunk...

Yet I can do all the stuff on my controversial trick list, I might get a proper sig one day.

It's REALLY crap learning the first motions, but when you have it implanted it's there. Talent or not...

[Flowers]

Mmmm no no it's not.

It's like how a gymnast and bboy can pick up tricking better than an average person. They already have some of the basic ideas behind them.

[billy]

I still stand with the fact, body shape has alot more to do with trickers progression then alot of people take account for.

[rakis]

wow soo many threads on this,

I will put in my story and 2 cents if any one is still reading this :)

Most of you guys are young and that is a big ++ this is a plus from numours things: e.g. determination, lack of fear, more time to apply, less responsibilities, less prone to injuries. SO infact, you have a lot more time and and natural ability to trick. Take this seriously and apply it...

I am 23, i have been tricking for 1 year, with martial arts experience at the age of 16 to 18, i didnt do much from 18 till 22 apart from work and from 22 to 23 i just went to the gym.

Now let me say, hanging around younger people gives me the passion and power to trick, some say i am doing really well considering where i have come from and where iam today... and to be honest i think this is just the begining.

I am a better tricker, a more confident and postive person and more determined in life than ever, i feel i have gotten all this from tricking...

At the end of the day i belive hard work will allways beat natural talent, people tend to make excuses and these start from the moment they wake up (in there head), your first obsticle is not performing your tricks, its being postive and having a postive outlook towards life, setting realistic goals and going for them, not making excuses...

I have and am applying this daily and find that, if you say you want somthing and you can do it you will eventually get there. Sure we all have our ups and downs, thats part of life, but remeber tomorrow is another day, and another day is a day working closer to acheving what you want.

SO when you wake up tell your self, this is what iam going to acheive... Dont remind your self of what you are not acheving remind your self of what you will acheive

Might sound all wosshyy washhy lol, but taking the first step begins in your mind...

Good luck to all, for all those young guys at there, take a look your idols or guys older than you, everything takes time and the older guys out there who are great trickers started from the bottom.... Now set your goals high and aim for where they are or better :)

[slim-grim]

Fuck yeah!!! That's freakin excellent stuff man, you're absolutely right. Keep on tricking, lookin forward to seeing some of your stuff.

[Kyukodo Gaz]

Tall grow shorter? (Visa-Versa)

aw come on! My m8 is 6'2'', i'm 5'9''. I am naturally more muscly than him, and trained weights a lot when younger. I now weigh around 83 k. He got pissed off about this fact and trained harder, and guess what, he's bigger than me now.

Plus, being tall and short will both carry advantages in certain techniques, it all balances out in the end.

edit: also final prophecy, I will definitely say that all of that stuff is possible for you. It may take longer, but you will eventually be able to do it. There are people who start yoga in their 50's who whup my ass in flexibility, there are weight lifters who start later than that and get ripped out after some years training, and there are 12 year olds who are better trickers than I am at the moment. It does not mean that I will never be as good as them. It may take a bit longer, but I will do it. Determination can win over anything. Body shape is just a blessing or a hindrance. Not a barrier.

[Yuri]

well written gaz.
you are wise beyond your years

[cepopeye]

Yay for BIG Tricksters!!!! Any footy? I'm lazy and tired right now.

haha, why are you so patriotic suddenly about your tricks in ratio to your body type? I can't think of any reason why its better to stay "good for a heavy body type" than to put out the effort to get in shape.

Like, why would you want people saying "ah, well he's good for his size" instead of just "man that dude rocks!"? it seems cowardly to hide behind your weight so that people can't draw direct comparison's between yours and other people's tricks.

[Flowers]

I like gaz alot more now for some reason

[Kyukodo Gaz]

I like gaz alot more now for some reason

Ah, thankx Ben. I've always liked you :wink:

[Tossman]

woops i'm a little late here on this thread. but nevertheless, yes u have a shot at being great

u should have seen animal from HTU a few years ago. by far the LEAST naturally gifted. but if u've seen any of the shit he can do now, u'll agree he's one of the best here on tt.

[Scott]

haha, why are you so patriotic suddenly about your tricks in ratio to your body type? I can't think of any reason why its better to stay "good for a heavy body type" than to put out the effort to get in shape.

Like, why would you want people saying "ah, well he's good for his size" instead of just "man that dude rocks!"? it seems cowardly to hide behind your weight so that people can't draw direct comparison's between yours and other people's tricks.

I swear you just directly quoted Jujifrufru.

[Swartz]

I didn't bother reading this entirely long thread, just the original post, but I'll chime in with one word:

Mental.

That's most of tricking. Sure it looks all physical on the outside, but to succeed requires your to exercise your mind and attitude. The right mindset to enjoy what you're doing and train correctly, and the focus to look at the details and study technique. It's amazing what you can apply to your body with just sheer brain power.

[tuareg]

Yeah, but this is pretty unfair though. My friend who only practised taekwondo with me (never did tricking), threw a totally sexy butterfly kick on his third attempt. I was like :eh: .

Anyway, determind ones are the best. You could be very good if your a natural, but if your not, and if your determind about your goals in tricking, then you'll feel that you've achieved your goals the hard way. The hard way is sometimes the best.

[Swartz]

Nothing is unfair. I'm pretty sick of people comparing themselves to other and when watching good people trick get all depressed and crap. They need to turn that into motivation, inspiration, anything good.

Everyone is different and as soon as people accept that more, the less I have to read people bitching about their progress.

[FatTricks]

haha, why are you so patriotic suddenly about your tricks in ratio to your body type? I can't think of any reason why its better to stay "good for a heavy body type" than to put out the effort to get in shape.

Like, why would you want people saying "ah, well he's good for his size" instead of just "man that dude rocks!"? it seems cowardly to hide behind your weight so that people can't draw direct comparison's between yours and other people's tricks.

Comparison? Compare me! I don't care. I've tricked with the best of them. I can drop names! "ah well he's good for his size"....THAT'S RIGHT! My size....not too many "my size" out there.

Who's hiding behind weight? I don't understand what you mean. I'm patriotic about my tricks because you never\rarely see people of my stature(body type\weight) doing tricks. I want to show the "fatties" that it IS possible, that it's not JUST for SKINNY people, and to NOT GIVE UP. Out of all of the samplers and vids out there, how many would you say were of "BIG GUYS"? Not too many....you could prolly count them on one hand.

While I agree that for efficient tricking, one should be in "ideal" shape, which in turn means LOSING EXCESS WEIGHT. I believe that. But right now, that is not my concern. My concern is to show that weight issues are'nt as much of a hindrance as many believe.

I know that if I lost 45 lbs....the height on my backflips will increase. But that does'nt mean that at this weight 245lbs, I cannot backflip at all. I was doing roundoff backs, 540's and wallflips at my heaviest (268lbs).

POUNDS ARE JUST NUMBERS. Just cuz you weigh 'X' amount doesn't mean you CANNOT trick. I'm living testament to that fact.

Whatever. Take it or leave it. I'm not here to impress anyone skinnier than me. I'm here for the fatties.

[Cicero]

Comparison? Compare me! I don't care. I've tricked with the best of them. I can drop names! "ah well he's good for his size"....THAT'S RIGHT! My size....not too many "my size" out there.

Who's hiding behind weight? I don't understand what you mean. I'm patriotic about my tricks because you never\rarely see people of my stature(body type\weight) doing tricks. I want to show the "fatties" that it IS possible, that it's not JUST for SKINNY people, and to NOT GIVE UP. Out of all of the samplers and vids out there, how many would you say were of "BIG GUYS"? Not too many....you could prolly count them on one hand.

While I agree that for efficient tricking, one should be in "ideal" shape, which in turn means LOSING EXCESS WEIGHT. I believe that. But right now, that is not my concern. My concern is to show that weight issues are'nt as much of a hindrance as many believe.

I know that if I lost 45 lbs....the height on my backflips will increase. But that does'nt mean that at this weight 245lbs, I cannot backflip at all. I was doing roundoff backs, 540's and wallflips at my heaviest (268lbs).

POUNDS ARE JUST NUMBERS. Just cuz you weigh 'X' amount doesn't mean you CANNOT trick. I'm living testament to that fact.

Whatever. Take it or leave it. I'm not here to impress anyone skinnier than me. I'm here for the fatties.

I really admire you man. I'd like to smoke a joint with you someday if you're into that stuff.

[tuareg]

Nothing is unfair. I'm pretty sick of people comparing themselves to other and when watching good people trick get all depressed and crap. They need to turn that into motivation, inspiration, anything good.

Everyone is different and as soon as people accept that more, the less I have to read people bitching about their progress.

Calm down. I wasnt bitching about anything.

And i do agree with you. Whenever i see a natural, i always think about getting better than him with determination. Determind people are always better because we seem passionate about getting good and better. I do atleast.