View Full Version : <^> The BIG BACKSIDE DEBATE <^> (not about butts)
Ambitrixterous
Apr-11-07, 09:50 PM
... There has been a lot of talk about the introduction of the term "backside" on Matt Emig's tutorial on Bilang.com, some people think the 'new' kicks are just poor versions of the kicks we already know, others are readily accepting them as the useful tools (and tricks) they are. Let's see what you think:
The Facts:
-"Backside" kicks have been around for a long time, and have been used by many of the tricking celebrities we know and love today
-They account for the opposite kicks in rotations in between "standard" pop kicks (because they are exactly 1/2 rotations in between)
-These tools are EXTREMELY useful in learning any and all versions of vert spin kicks
-Many combos simply CANNOT be performed at certain angles, many of them considered standard, without these kicks
My Own Thoughts:
-Whatever term you want to use, these are SEPARATE movements. They themselves are tricks and ought to be recognized as such.
-To those who are just being introduced to them, I recommend using what I have named "True Kick Terminology" (see my sig), which eliminates the 180degrees for setting the kicking leg down, and literally renames all pop kicks to the exact degree of aerial spin and the direction of the kick (to me 'backside' sounds like... a 'backside'...)
Agreed. A "backside 1080" is simply a 900 hook, a "cheat 1440" is simply a 1260 hook etc...
Kyukodo Gaz
Apr-12-07, 02:27 AM
I really like it. I know other people don't. I seem to follow a trend with stuff like this. I like any innovation as long as it is useful, and I think that this is a useful tool for comboing. I'm not bothered about the actual term used, but th concept is great for just changing direction with an awesome pop move.
I'm gonna get flamed, I can see it now!
TKD_Andy
Apr-12-07, 02:38 AM
haha i think backside moves are cool, people who dont like them are just too far up their own asses to accept new stuff.
Then we need own terms for stuff like:
Underrotated cheat900s and underrotated hypertwists (after all, you can't go all the way around during say, a hypertwist-540 combo. This clearly shows the need of a new term).
900 hook even takes less time to write and speak than backside 900, so I don't see the point.
TKD_Andy
Apr-12-07, 02:56 AM
jan, just say B9 instead then :good:
so now we have P9 (pop 9), C9 (cheat 9) and B9 (backside 9)
poliver
Apr-12-07, 03:08 AM
TKD_Andy don't forget the step-overs! they rock too you know.
anyway backsides are fine.
chill out people, the numbers in trick names are only trick names, they have nothing to do with the aerial rotation.
yeay i got myself a new noobish combo - P360, Back Sweep, B900
The numbers in the trick names are supposed to be the aerial rotation representatives. The problem is that so many people cheat their moves so much, that the aerial rotation representatives become "only trick names".
A 720 is supposed to be a 540 spin with a hook kick around the 540, then another 180 spin before completing the move, making it a 720. Look at Steve Terada's 720. That's a REAL one.
A 900 is supposed to be a 720 spin with an inside crescent kick, then spinning another 180 before completing the move, resulting in a 900. You jump -> way, spin twice, kick -> way and end up facing <- way. 900 degrees.
When people take off to the east, spin 1.5 times clockwise, kick out to the northwest and land to the North, it's not a 720. It's a shitty version of one.
The numbers used to be aerial spin representatives. The last couple of years, they've been "merely trick names", because too many people are too lazy to bother learning the moves properly.
If it's not 720 degrees, it's not a real 720. Which is why the naming of a 900 hook into a backside 1080 is stupid, because it has nothing to do with the 1080 degree spinkick at all. It lacks the rotation.
Why not call an underrotated 540gyro a "540 frontside gyro"? It's just half a gyro, but it's still the same move, just underrotated. You land facing the front, not the back, but that doesn't matter. It's still a 540 frontside gyro. The real 540gyro is infinitely harder, but who cares. It's impossible to do a normal jump frontkick towards the right angle from a real 540gyro, so we clearly need a new term categorizing this new, underrotated version of it.
TKD_Andy
Apr-12-07, 03:24 AM
haha jan stop trying to OVERcomplicate things! theres no need man :good:
Kyukodo Gaz
Apr-12-07, 04:59 AM
Here we go again...
Goddamn it! things change!
i like backsides...
i like old tricking terminology
im using both haha
Dragonic MiKe
Apr-12-07, 05:28 AM
Jan has a point.
All the moves that are called 'backside' (as trendy as the term sounds) could just be named by their true rotation. e.g. Backside 1080 -> 900 hook, and Backside 900 -> 720 round.
The use of round and hook, or inside/outside, coupled with actual degree of rotation is more logical. Although, it is probably easier to think about a '900 hook' as a 1080 kick with 180 degrees removed.
I've come to the conclusion that 'backside' is a useful term because it saves buggering around with whether or not you're throwing an inside or outside kick on your spin.
shengoikee
Apr-12-07, 06:08 AM
i agree completely with dan perez!! :good:
jan, just say B9 instead then :good:
so now we have P9 (pop 9), C9 (cheat 9) and B9 (backside 9)
good idea :good:
The numbers in the trick names are supposed to be the aerial rotation representatives. The problem is that so many people cheat their moves so much, that the aerial rotation representatives become "only trick names".
A 720 is supposed to be a 540 spin with a hook kick around the 540, then another 180 spin before completing the move, making it a 720. Look at Steve Terada's 720. That's a REAL one.
A 900 is supposed to be a 720 spin with an inside crescent kick, then spinning another 180 before completing the move, resulting in a 900. You jump -> way, spin twice, kick -> way and end up facing <- way. 900 degrees.
When people take off to the east, spin 1.5 times clockwise, kick out to the northwest and land to the North, it's not a 720. It's a shitty version of one.
The numbers used to be aerial spin representatives. The last couple of years, they've been "merely trick names", because too many people are too lazy to bother learning the moves properly.
If it's not 720 degrees, it's not a real 720. Which is why the naming of a 900 hook into a backside 1080 is stupid, because it has nothing to do with the 1080 degree spinkick at all. It lacks the rotation.
Why not call an underrotated 540gyro a "540 frontside gyro"? It's just half a gyro, but it's still the same move, just underrotated. You land facing the front, not the back, but that doesn't matter. It's still a 540 frontside gyro. The real 540gyro is infinitely harder, but who cares. It's impossible to do a normal jump frontkick towards the right angle from a real 540gyro, so we clearly need a new term categorizing this new, underrotated version of it.
JAN! OH MY FUCK DUDE! hahahaha
you cant just say a trick deserves a different name because someone does it a marginally different way (the 540gyro thing you just mentioned). you're entitled to think it's shitty but it's not an entirely different trick. (you already know this though as you mentioned with the pop tricks. im being patronising haha....)
ok, it's like "trickster aerial" and "gymnast aerial". to me there are "shitty aerials" and "good aerials". doesnt matter if you enter slightly from the side (it should still be completely different to a bkick anyway) theyr both just "aerials" and anything else makes me wanna have a bath with my toaster.
however.... iv always considered these newly called "backside" pop tricks as completely different tricks because the stance in which you take off is the opposite of normal pop tricks when considering the direction of rotation. theyr also usually from standing! (in combos you'd have to punch into them)
to really show this effectively compare a pop720 like teradas with a "backside"720 from standing. theyr completely different!
i must admit though, id rather see people using these mid combo rather than starting off a combo with them or using them as stand-alone moves. a "backside"1080 on it's own isnt nearly as impressive as a good clean 1080.
although they probly take equal effort to perform, people shouldnt use "backside" as an excuse not to do their tricks to their full potential yet still claim to be a good "pop" kicker.
Man tricking is stupid. Who the fuck tricks around here, what a bunch of FAGS.
i agree completely with dan perez!! :good:
good idea :good:
JAN! OH MY FUCK DUDE! hahahaha
you cant just say a trick deserves a different name because someone does it a marginally different way (the 540gyro thing you just mentioned). you're entitled to think it's shitty but it's not an entirely different trick. (you already know this though as you mentioned with the pop tricks. im being patronising haha....)
ok, it's like "trickster aerial" and "gymnast aerial". to me there are "shitty aerials" and "good aerials". doesnt matter if you enter slightly from the side (it should still be completely different to a bkick anyway) theyr both just "aerials" and anything else makes me wanna have a bath with my toaster.
however.... iv always considered these newly called "backside" pop tricks as completely different tricks because the stance in which you take off is the opposite of normal pop tricks when considering the direction of rotation. theyr also usually from standing! (in combos you'd have to punch into them)
to really show this effectively compare a pop720 like teradas with a "backside"720 from standing. theyr completely different!
i must admit though, id rather see people using these mid combo rather than starting off a combo with them or using them as stand-alone moves. a "backside"1080 on it's own isnt nearly as impressive as a good clean 1080.
although they probly take equal effort to perform, people shouldnt use "backside" as an excuse not to do their tricks to their full potential yet still claim to be a good "pop" kicker.
You're contradicting yourself. You say that cheated versions of the same move don't deserve their own names (i.e. underrotated 54gyro, underrotated 360gyro etc), but that underrotated (thus slanted) moves like an underrotated 720 or underrotated 900 deserve their own category, because you don't END UP losing 180 degrees, you START OFF losing 180 degrees.
That makes no sense.
The stance isn't much different in a normal "pop" move and an underrotated (backsided) one, except you take off facing the back instead of the front/side. you still take off with both legs, use your arms, jump up, spin and kick.
And yes, I can do both real 720s and shitty versions of one, so I do base this on actual experimenting.
On the plus-side, I agree that underrotated pop moves are absolutely necessary to make a combo look good, considering you cant do a fully rotated pop move from i.e. a btwist or a cheat720twist. I just think it's stupid to give the tricks their own terms, as they're already existing tricks. People just don't do them much, because if someone put a clip online and went "OMG MY FIRST 720!", while they were facing the back in the initiation of the jump, people would go "YOU CHEAT THE MOVE BY 180 DEGREES, IDIAT!"
Just because they're done in combos, doesn't mean they should get their own names. They already have names, and they are:
Backside 900: 720 roundhouse.
Backside 1080: 900 hook.
Backside 1440: 1260 hook.
Backside 360: 180 hook (however lame that sounds).
Is there any difficulty in understanding what this combo is:
Btwist-cheat720twist-900 hook swing raiz-gainer.
??
That was a fairly complicated combo as well. The 900 hook term is logical, deals with the technicalities and easier to understand for a newbie than "backside 900". Who the hell knows what a backside is anyways, unless you've either 1: seen the tutorial, or 2: discussed this theme?
Are you supposed to grab the side of your skateboard while doing a 1080 spin...? I wonder.
Man tricking is stupid. Who the fuck tricks around here, what a bunch of FAGS.
I trick. Are you 12 btw? Name-calling is uncalled for.
Cocksucker.
shengoikee
Apr-12-07, 10:12 AM
haha yeah, i tricked like every day for the last 2 weeks.... (and can do most of these moves im talking about)
jan i pretty much agree with you man. i think the main difference is the naming issues. i was quite happily calling the now "backside1080" a 900hook for a long time. i think it's because the move was so uncommon that it's name never really became well founded.
didnt think i contradicted myself cos i tried to point out that this was an exception to me. there is a 180 degree difference in "backside" and "pop" so to me they are pretty much opposite so deserve different names.
i actually like both names although i can see how we might be approaching some sort of backside FAD now.... which might be gay haha
TKD_Andy
Apr-12-07, 10:14 AM
jan i can see where you're coming from, but the term 900 on its own, for me will always be a round kick, so if someone said 'i just did a 900 hook' i'd be like... wtf is that :eh:
if you just said you did a backside 9 i'd understand... i honestly dont think now is the time to get pernickety about degrees of rotation and how everyone in the world bar like 2 people do it wrong!
----------------------------------------
right this is the actual bit i've thought out:
tricks that involve degrees of rotation like this usually, like 98% of the time have a pre-fix, such as pop and cheat. If you said to someone 'oh i just did a 900' there could be ambiguity over whether it was a pop or a cheat.
HOWEVER! In both cases BOTH tricks end with a round kick
Now you're suggesting we call backside 1080s, for example, 900 hooks. If someone said to me that they'd just done a 900 hook, these would be common thoughts:
*ok 900* *pop or cheat?* *wait... HOOK? 900s are round kicks*
HOWEVER (again!)
If backside tricks were literally just given the prefix of backside, Bside or just B then they are being very clear about what they're doing. Just so there can be no confusion or ambiguity over it.
Therefore, its just easier if you said something was a backside 1080 rather than a 900 hook, because it'd make the trick MUCH CLEARER. Plus its easier to rationalize into thinking that way.
------------------------
Final thought: I think you might not agree with any of this, purely on linguistic differences (subjects placement in sentences might be different in norway, i dont know)
shengoikee
Apr-12-07, 10:18 AM
yah i was thinking an arguement for the term "backside" would be the confusion of saying 900hook
- 900hook could imply 1080jacknife. (hyperpop900 with an added hook)
- you dont generally have to say "hook" or "round" for most other tricks
"backside" does seem to be a simple and effective but like i said before, both names at least make sense to me.
shengoikee
Apr-12-07, 10:19 AM
yah i was thinking an arguement for the term "backside" would be the confusion of saying 900hook
- 900hook could imply 1080jacknife. (hyperpop900 with an added hook)
- you dont generally have to say "hook" or "round" for most other tricks
"backside" does seem to be a simple and effective but like i said before, both names at least make sense to me.
.......... and the man talks about overcomplicating stuff.
900 = the standard 900 degree spin inside crescent kick move.
cheat 900 = the standard cheated 900 spin inside crescent thing. If you say 900 hook, it means the 900 kick spinny thing, but with a HOOK instead of an inside crescent.
How can you mess up that? It's so increeeediblyyyy siiimpleeeeeee.
360 = a full 360 rotation and a hook kick. ONE SPIN.
[B]540 = A 360 spin with an inside crescent, plus extra 180 rotation after the kick.
720 = A full 720 degree rotation with a hook kick. TWO SPINS
900 = A 720 spin with an inside crescent kick, plus extra 180 rotation after the kick.
1080 = A full 1080 degree rotation with a hook kick. THREE SPINS
1260 = A full 1080 degree rotation with an inside crescent kick, plus extra 180 rotation after the kick.
1440 = A full 1440 spin with a hook kick. FOUR SPINS
Notice how all the "odd" numbered tricks are inside crescents, whereas all the "equal" numbered tricks are hooks? It's a set, unwritten rule, and it's been around since the late 90's. That's why naming it a 900 hook = 2.5 rotations with a hook kick. It's a 900, but it's a hook, not an inside crescent. That's why it's named a 900 hook. The hook is the difference.
And for the record, the "backside 1080" was named 900 hook WAY before the term "backside" was ever "invented" in tricks. I've been calling them 900 hooks since 2003 (or whenever Marc C did his first 1080 attempt on bilang), and so has plenty others.
Most people don't cheat their pop moves. Most people on TT cheat their pop moves. Look at Marc C, Sammy Vasquez, Steve Terada, Logan.... Choose a good trickster, and he will MOST LIKELY do the move properly. The problem is that a lot of "amateur" tricksters (people on TT.com who can trick well, but who aren't i.e. competing), utterly SUCK at doing their pop tricks properly.
Look at David Douglas! He did a proper 720 with a decent rotation back in friggin 1996 (or something of the likes). Same goes for Jon Valera. They didn't cheat the setup and say "BACKSIDED". They did the full rotation (most of the time anyways), and if they didn't, the move was slanted (underrotated).
720 = A full 720 degree rotation with a hook kick. TWO SPINS
just a question jan, didn't you say earlier that a 720 was a 540 degree rotation, kick and then another 180 ? or have i misread the above quote or something, just wondering, so i can clear some stuff up in my head.
another thing, you have to remember, no matter how much you explain it, i don't think people will come round to your way of thinking, (as is obvious with peoples current tricking terminology on here) the backside debate sounds like it is another new issue which is quite controversial. Maybe we should save energy discussing it, and call tricks what we believe them to be. It would save a lot of time trying to persuade others to on here, and give us more time to trick :smile:
Skilzat85X
Apr-12-07, 10:53 AM
This entire debate is retarded you rotational fools. Nobody cares about degrees. Things are fine the way they are.
There's no point in making all these fag rules because everybody is just going to keep calling the moves what they want to. I don't give a crap about degree terminology because it's stupid and never makes sense. But we need labels, so we have them. Who cares what they say, the actual name of them is totally irrelevant to any of them.
If you cheat that extra backside or whatever gay 180 on your move, it makes absolutely no difference. Because then it's just like choosing a different target. It makes no sense. That's like saying I do a backside corkscrew because instead of taking off straight and to the side I can turn around more then do it. Stupid. You're changing the direction you're target is in, that's all. The takeoff is completely irrelevant, the only thing that should matter is the relative amount of rotations done in the air preceding the kick.
TKD_Andy
Apr-12-07, 11:08 AM
lol sorry jan you're not changing my mind on this one....
especially when you're being picky about names and calling them 'hooks' and 'roundhouses' or w/e when people dont actually do the a hook or a roundhouse... regardless of the rotation.
im sticking with calling them backsides, that way people are sure what i'm on about, rather than saying i'm doing a 'pure 900 degrees of rotation with a hook kick which isnt actually a hook its a crescent' instead.
... or just "I'm doing a 900".
Since the late 90's, odd-numbered tricks like the 540 and 900 have been inside crescents/roundhouses. The rest, like the 360 and 720, were hooks (or outside crescents, if you want to be picky on this stupid thing). Thus, if you write 900 hook, it was ALWAYS obvious that it would be a 900 degree spin hook, because if it wasn't, you'd simply write "900". If you'd start to think "OMG iznt it a 900 jacknife???" Well, NO. Then it would say "900 jacknife".
How can you overcomplicate something as simple as that?? It's been around for fucking forever. Goddamn post-2004 tricksters who never learnt their terms right. *old geezer*
actually jan you are wrong. the rotations are not referring to the amount one spins while IN the air / aerial rotations. It is referring to the amount of spins one completes before returning back to stance. If you have a martial arts background you would know this / should know this. I am going to trust you atleast understand what this means. This doesnt mean someone can jump into the air do a 180 land spin on his toes for another 360...
Backside is cheating the move quite a bit, but this isnt a new concept. Marc C used it way back in the day. Watch the old XKC or 2002 CLN offstage stuff. Marc does a couple 1080s from a standing backside setup.
actually jan you are wrong. the rotations are not referring to the amount one spins while IN the air / aerial rotations. It is referring to the amount of spins one completes before returning back to stance. If you have a martial arts background you would know this / should know this. I am going to trust you atleast understand what this means. This doesnt mean someone can jump into the air do a 180 land spin on his toes for another 360...
Backside is cheating the move quite a bit, but this isnt a new concept. Marc C used it way back in the day. Watch the old XKC or 2002 CLN offstage stuff. Marc does a couple 1080s from a standing backside setup.
Yeah, I did write earlier that a real 720 = a 540 spin with a hook kick, finishing off with a 180 degree spin. That was pretty much what I meant. The last post was dumbed down, so I wrote "a full 720 spin with a hook kick", since you've completed 720 degrees of spin before finishing the move.
And yes, I know Marc C did "backside 1080s" in 2002. They were called 900 hooks though, from my knowledge of the bilang boards. Some called them 1080s, but they were obviously too underrotated to be 1080s.
poliver
Apr-12-07, 01:21 PM
tricking has evolved, prefixes are way cooler.
OMGZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Denial ain't just in Egypt!
Skilzat85X
Apr-12-07, 01:38 PM
You complete niggocrites.
Always whining about "oh kicking KICKING KICKING has to be all of tricking no flips you have to do mostly kicks flips and twists are dark ages they are terrible they are no fun only kicks are the best thats where tricking came from that's how it started thats how it has to stay."
And now you come out with all this "well tricking is evolving tricking is changing we can make these gaymax changes sure we dont want anything else to "evolve" except we want so we're going to come up with retarded bs excuses of why we should be able to make this like we want but yea tricking has to stay at its roots man only kicks but we're changing everything we want ok yea oh yes backside backside i love it in the backside why wouldnt you like the backside we can change we evolve it cause we want to but nothing else k".
1-800-FRES
I don't even know what this backside shit is referring to, but I agree with Jan and Skillzat, because they're smarter than the rest of you.
i love it in the backside
haha <3 you make me laaarrrfff
kinetic
Apr-12-07, 03:29 PM
You complete niggocrites.
Always whining about "oh kicking KICKING KICKING has to be all of tricking no flips you have to do mostly kicks flips and twists are dark ages they are terrible they are no fun only kicks are the best thats where tricking came from that's how it started thats how it has to stay."
And now you come out with all this "well tricking is evolving tricking is changing we can make these gaymax changes sure we dont want anything else to "evolve" except we want so we're going to come up with retarded bs excuses of why we should be able to make this like we want but yea tricking has to stay at its roots man only kicks but we're changing everything we want ok yea oh yes backside backside i love it in the backside why wouldnt you like the backside we can change we evolve it cause we want to but nothing else k".
1-800-FRES
I don't even know what this backside shit is referring to, but I agree with Jan and Skillzat, because they're smarter than the rest of you.
HAHA!
Honestly, i dont really like this backside stuff that much either. This is just going to overcomplicate things even more. Just when people are starting to understand all the kicking terms, we add more? Ehh..
Ambitrixterous
Apr-12-07, 08:26 PM
*Argument I STILL haven't heard answered, by either side:*
A 360 is not a 360 with an outside kick, this kick must be landed on both legs (as in a hyper)
A 540 is a cheat takeoff hyper kick.
A 720 is a pop kick, no hyper
A 900 is a pop kick, no hyper
A 1080 is a pop kick, no hyper
-you can't drop off prefixes if the names aren't uniform.
-you can't add a prefix if you don't already use uniform names (if all you say is "Backside 540" what are you talking about???
Backside or not, it's impossible to argue when there's different standards. This is the reason there is already so much confusion over the names.
@Skilz: seriously? The same guy who preaches to recognize the difference between a corkscrew and a gainer full can't figure out what's going on here and falls back on "aw who cares about the names?" C'mon... you're not even trying now...
Skilzat85X
Apr-12-07, 10:12 PM
That's because there actually is a difference between the corkscrew and the gainerfull you silly nigg.
Let's see, one is horizontal and done as a variant of the slant gainer.
One is a vertically flipped/inverted and done as a variant of a regular inverted gainer.
Complete difference.
Now let's see. I'm gonna go do a pop kick. Wait, I just added 180 extra degrees before I even left the ground!
TOTALLY NEW MOVES! Because we all know that you ARENT in full control of your body when you're on the ground. That extra 180 degrees takes some effort!
Guys there's another tricking I invented. It's called the frontside corkscrew. You do it just like a corkscrew, but instead of the normal run-up you take 1 million steps forwards.
And let's not forget about the shortside front flip. It's just like a normal front flip, only you lean forwards before you takeoff. Clever eh? Talk about it's own move!
---------
When you add extra rotation to the takeoff before you leave the ground, all you're doing is changing the direction your target is in. Period.
I don't know why you think I preach about the difference between two moves that are actually different due to the way the move looks, feels, is landed, and have different techniques.
Backsiding is a usable concept, but we don't need to call anything a "backside whatever." That's just stupid, and unnecessary. There's absolutely no need to dumb down moves.
And for the record, I'd rather be preaching the difference between two different moves than trying to force everybody to accept my own made up rules and names for everything.
I'm not trying now because I couldn't give a crap about what you have to say haha. Why should I? I'm not going to be doing any backside 324983294's. I'm going to be doing tricks that look cool and then seeing what name they fit of already established names.
You're not going to win anyone over with your arguments. And even if you did it wouldn't matter because I don't know who would be trying any "backside" moves just for the heck of it when they could just be doing them the normal way, or as we like to call it, the non-useless way.
*stroke stroke*
I enjoyed that response, gainerfulls and corks are two different moves in the same way that gainers and moonkicks are different moves. Moonkicks were originally called kick the moon...that's a much cooler name, yay Dean Alexandrou!
Dean Alexandrou ftw etc:)
I still remember that floatyass moonkick he did:D
TKD_Andy
Apr-13-07, 12:40 AM
except because of that vid sessh released saying that a moonkick is a non-inverted 180gainerhook (using his exampler as gospel) then you'd get a load of n00bs bashing him because he 'cant do it right'
haha not that it has anything to do with anything....
sesshoumaru
Apr-13-07, 12:40 AM
I agree that the addition of a "backside" terminology, is gonna make things a bit more cumbersome...however, I can't deny it necessity. When talking about "Pop & Cheat" tricks, we all understand that every 360° increment denotes that an outside spinning kick is used [hook, wheel, crescent] . Likewise, we understand that every 180° increment denotes that an inside spinning kick is used [round or crescent]. This is true regardless of whether the trick is "cheated" or not.
In a Backside 1080, we can all agree that it's more of a "900 hook" than anything else. However, this can get very confusing because a "regular" Pop 900 can be executed with a hook as well [instead of doing a round/crescent kick, the hips turn pass the target and the a hook is thrown in the direction opposite of the spin]. So how can we differenciate a Pop 900-hook with a "Pop 900 hook" when communicating?
It is much easier to stick to the "360° outside/180° inside" pattern to tricking, and the "Backside" term accomodates that. In a Backside 1080, the "1080" is telling you what type of kick is being used [outside spinning kick, just like in "Pop" tricks], though it's not being completely honest in how many spins; it is letting the trickers know that it is more than 720°. When attempting, it requires the same amount of effort to Backside 1080 as it does to Pop 1080 [with a run-up]...so even in difficulty, the two tricks are congruent, which makes the inherent "cheat" of the "Backside" not so apparent.
TKD_Andy
Apr-13-07, 12:43 AM
THANKYOU SESSH!
haha that was what i was trying to say, but didnt have the colours to illustrate it properly :good:
Source
Apr-13-07, 03:05 AM
I'm going to say that backside moves do have their place in tricking. They aren't just dumbed down versions of anyting. So I guess I agree with sesh there. I've been experimenting with them in combos recently and they definitely have uses that standard pop kicks don't quite have. I don't really like the name backside anything though, I can see how it would have come about but it still feels like cheating. They do deserve their own name however and backside seems to be acceptable to most people so thats what it is...
shengoikee
Apr-13-07, 03:54 AM
McNASTY!
Skilzat85X
Apr-13-07, 10:07 AM
I agree that the addition of a "backside" terminology, is gonna make things a bit more cumbersome...however, I can't deny it necessity. When talking about "Pop & Cheat" tricks, we all understand that every 360° increment denotes that an outside spinning kick is used [hook, wheel, crescent] . Likewise, we understand that every 180° increment denotes that an inside spinning kick is used [round or crescent]. This is true regardless of whether the trick is "cheated" or not.
In a Backside 1080, we can all agree that it's more of a "900 hook" than anything else. However, this can get very confusing because a "regular" Pop 900 can be executed with a hook as well [instead of doing a round/crescent kick, the hips turn pass the target and the a hook is thrown in the direction opposite of the spin]. So how can we differenciate a Pop 900-hook with a "Pop 900 hook" when communicating?
It is much easier to stick to the "360° outside/180° inside" pattern to tricking, and the "Backside" term accomodates that. In a Backside 1080, the "1080" is telling you what type of kick is being used [outside spinning kick, just like in "Pop" tricks], though it's not being completely honest in how many spins; it is letting the trickers know that it is more than 720°. When attempting, it requires the same amount of effort to Backside 1080 as it does to Pop 1080 [with a run-up]...so even in difficulty, the two tricks are congruent, which makes the inherent "cheat" of the "Backside" not so apparent.
Ahhhh ok NOW it makes a little sense.
However the problem is now people are gonna be like "OMG that's no pop that's just a backside."
It's just something that's sort of uncontrollable. Who's too say how much is too much or too little for a backside? I can forsee people calling regular pop 720s with a less rotation before leaving the ground "backside 1080s".
Here's what I think of it:
Do we really need this? Why not just keep it simple. Tricks are currently labeled by 1) how many rotations are done before the kick and 2) the type (in or out) of kick thrown. The rotations done in the air should be the only thing that matter in the name of the trick. Because ok, if I show you a clip of a backside whatever and then a pop whatever, however I only show you it from the instant they leave the ground to the end, you aren't going to be able to tell what the heck it is!
It's sorta like how everyone thinks that the "J-Step" gainer is it's own move. It's freaking not! Man that's so retarded. The J-Step is just a way to set up for it, it's totally independent of the trick.
This is some nasty kettle-corn fattening artery-clogging heart-attack-invoking orville redenbacher's plus sized popcorn stupidity.
Matt R
Apr-13-07, 10:14 AM
yeh iv always been very very anti jstep
poliver
Apr-13-07, 11:53 AM
Pop 900 can be executed with a hook as well [instead of doing a round/crescent kick, the hips turn pass the target and the a hook is thrown in the direction opposite of the spin
It can, but isn't it just stupid? starting a two spin kick with your back to the target...
if I show you a clip of a backside whatever and then a pop whatever, however I only show you it from the instant they leave the ground to the end, you aren't going to be able to tell what the heck it is!
backside - opposite stance, the other leg is in front of you but you're going to spin the same way. or do you do your pop kicks from mabu stance? (wushu talk)
Skilzat85X
Apr-13-07, 12:45 PM
backside - opposite stance, the other leg is in front of you but you're going to spin the same way. or do you do your pop kicks from mabu stance? (wushu talk)
Wow what a tremendously huge difference.
I totally had one foot in front of the other when I did a back flip.
TOTAL backside backflip niggaswat.
And I liek did a 540 but I stepped farther around instead of just a little instead CROSSIDE 540 YEA!
poliver
Apr-13-07, 01:03 PM
I think the opposite stance is the huge difference... :S
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9600/untitled1pk3.jpg
Source
Apr-13-07, 01:45 PM
Yeah in martial arts terms that is a pretty significant difference. And this is martial arts tricks...
Skilzat85X
Apr-13-07, 02:15 PM
Maybe for you bro. For me it's just freedom to do cool looking movements.
Logic:
It's a 900, but with a hook: 900 hook.
It's a 900, but underrotated: Backside 900.
Unless you know what the term "backside" means, you have no chance in knowing wtf it is. For all you know, you're supposed to grab the backside of your skateboard in midair.
Unfamiliarity with the term makes it completely illogical. It could be the backside of your leg, meaning you do an outside crescent kick.
ARg...
Ambitrixterous
Apr-13-07, 05:22 PM
Ahhhh ok NOW it makes a little sense.
However the problem is now people are gonna be like "OMG that's no pop that's just a backside."
It's just something that's sort of uncontrollable. Who's too say how much is too much or too little for a backside? I can forsee people calling regular pop 720s with a less rotation before leaving the ground "backside 1080s".
Here's what I think of it:
Do we really need this? Why not just keep it simple. Tricks are currently labeled by 1) how many rotations are done before the kick and 2) the type (in or out) of kick thrown. The rotations done in the air should be the only thing that matter in the name of the trick. Because ok, if I show you a clip of a backside whatever and then a pop whatever, however I only show you it from the instant they leave the ground to the end, you aren't going to be able to tell what the heck it is!
It's sorta like how everyone thinks that the "J-Step" gainer is it's own move. It's freaking not! Man that's so retarded. The J-Step is just a way to set up for it, it's totally independent of the trick.
This is some nasty kettle-corn fattening artery-clogging heart-attack-invoking orville redenbacher's plus sized popcorn stupidity.
Hmmm... let's try to pick out all the things that are wrong with 90% of the things you say, starting with this post:
-Who's to say how much for a backside? Everyone who can tell the difference between left and right.
-Tricks are currently labeled by the degree of spin and the direction of the kick? Since when? Have you ever heard of a 540 kick? Have you ever contradicted yourself more than once within the same thread?
we need labels, so we have them. Who cares what they say, the actual name of them is totally irrelevant to any of them.
-Show me any clip of a pop kick, or any vert spin kick for that matter, and I'll tell you EXACTLY "what the heck it is!"
When you add extra rotation to the takeoff before you leave the ground, all you're doing is changing the direction your target is in. Period.
wrong. While on their own they may be thought of that way, these kicks (in combination or solo) ALSO account for extra spin in the AIR. Especially when done in combination where the direction of the target STAYS THE SAME.
I don't know why you think I preach about the difference between two moves that are actually different due to the way the move looks, feels, is landed, and have different techniques.
Maybe because I don't think you can do them? Not talking corkscrews and fulls here, I'm talking kicks. If you could DO the backside kicks as well as the regular ones you might understand a little better how they feel. Until then stick to somthing you know, like making the same joke over and over.
Ambitrixterous
Apr-13-07, 05:30 PM
And for the record, I'd rather be preaching the difference between two different moves than trying to force everybody to accept my own made up rules and names for everything.
I'm not trying now because I couldn't give a crap about what you have to say haha. Why should I? I'm not going to be doing any backside 324983294's. I'm going to be doing tricks that look cool and then seeing what name they fit of already established names.
You're not going to win anyone over with your arguments. And even if you did it wouldn't matter because I don't know who would be trying any "backside" moves just for the heck of it when they could just be doing them the normal way, or as we like to call it, the non-useless way.
Ahh yes, I almost forgot about my "forcing" everybody to accept my own made up rules and names for everything. Why, even here my "force" is evident:
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j264/aquabelt/skilz0.jpg
feel free to have a look at the rest of that same page:
http://www.aeriformmat.com/faqeffectontricking.html
So, yeah bro you keep doing all your kicks the "non-useless way" and we'll see in the end why it is we should all sit and listen to you.
WilliamT
Apr-13-07, 05:31 PM
DAYUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM!
Ouchie wowchies.
I anticipate the scathing retort!
TartanPajamas
Apr-13-07, 06:14 PM
This debate, in itself, is proof that our terminology is fucked.
Nick B
Apr-13-07, 07:33 PM
why does everyone keep saying its a completly new set of moves. its the same moves, but cheated. its just a prefix. the reason why we should not change the names is because the connotative meaning is much more important than what the word actually stands for. and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot.
basically, people know that 720s are done with an outside cresent or hook, where as 900s are done with on inside cresent or round, and that is stuck in poeples heads because thats how those moves have been all this time. we are using connotative "definitions" to create new terminology.
edit: if anything needs to or is going to change, it should most definitly NOT start with "backside." thats just a prefix. the changes that NEED to take place if everyone here really has as big a problem with kicks as they look like they do (jan), we need to completly change the way we name kicks. if you want literal definitions, you need to make them, because right now they aren't.
sesshoumaru
Apr-13-07, 07:34 PM
:: Exactly ::
Skilzat85X
Apr-13-07, 09:29 PM
Ouchie wowchies.
I anticipate the scathing retort!
You'll be disappointed then. :sad:
I had a good night and I don't feel like arguing about something that doesn't matter to like...anyone?
Besides, I can basically just say:
why does everyone keep saying its a completly new set of moves. its the same moves, but cheated. its just a prefix. the reason why we should not change the names is because the connotative meaning is much more important than what the word actually stands for. and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot.
basically, people know that 720s are done with an outside cresent or hook, where as 900s are done with on inside cresent or round, and that is stuck in poeples heads because thats how those moves have been all this time. we are using connotative "definitions" to create new terminology.
edit: if anything needs to or is going to change, it should most definitly NOT start with "backside." thats just a prefix. the changes that NEED to take place if everyone here really has as big a problem with kicks as they look like they do (jan), we need to completly change the way we name kicks. if you want literal definitions, you need to make them, because right now they aren't.
Agreed.
I don't care if backside moves feel different (or if I never do them) because they uhh don't look any cooler than regular pop moves. And what's the point of doing a trick if it doesn't help or isn't cool. What can I say, I'm one pretty cool nigg.
CURSES! I was hoping for pain, angst, bloodletting and such. You know the fun part? I still haven't bothered to figure out what a backside trick is. I get the impression from reading these things that it's basically an underrotated version of an existing trick, because Jan was telling me earlier how 900 hook is simpler than backside 1080 or something like that.
Btw, the 540 is an exception. The name wasn't "made up" by tricksters, it's derived from Wushu and Capoeira.
We still call the butterfly twist butterfly twist, not horizontal 360 twist. Why do we use these terms? Because they've been around for centuries.
The corkscrew is named corkscrew by tricksters (or 540twist).
The cheat720twist is named just that by tricksters.
The 540 was named by Wushu dudes.
The btwist was named by Wushu dudes.
The parafuso was named by Capoeiristas.
There will always be exceptions. I just find adding even more exceptions to be stupid, as it will further complicate stuff even more.
I talked to Alpha yesterday, about backsides. During that debate, I even mixed up "backside 900" with a "backside 1080", because a "backside 1080" will have a 900 spin, whereas a "backside 900" will have a 900 kick. I went "...WTF" during our conversation, and I've debated this thing for about 6 pages now.
A 900 with a hook: 900 hook. What makes more sense than that? Even the corkscrew/540twist makes less sense than this.
... is that site an oldschool site? I've never even seen it before.
TKD_Andy
Apr-14-07, 04:03 AM
jan, dont forget parafuso's are an exception aswell because we apply the name to what is in fact the wrong trick haha
We are??? Hahaha. Which trick is the real parafuso then?:P
pete_man_man
Apr-14-07, 07:10 AM
Maybe for you bro. For me it's just freedom to do cool looking movements.
A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pete_man_man
Apr-14-07, 07:13 AM
McNASTY!
backsideMcNASTY!!!
Nick B
Apr-14-07, 08:33 AM
ok jan, you totally missed the point. 900 hook is not easier than b1080 because 900s are done with an inside kick, where as 1080s are done with an outside kick. THAT IS WHAT OUR DEFINITIONS ARE RIGHT NOW. the number not only denotes the spin, but what kick it is. it is a connotative meaning, just like people use fag as an insult, even if they are not implying that someone homosexual, or more recently myspace has come to stand for someones profile on a webpage, even though "my space" does not in any way imply that.
if you want to change them, you have to change ALL of them, not just backside tricks. backside is just one more way to describe a move. i truly dont understand why everyone is getting so worked up about it.
jan, dont forget parafuso's are an exception aswell because we apply the name to what is in fact the wrong trick haha
Well, different capoeira places call different tricks different names. A parafuso could be anything from a tornado kick to a cork, depending on where you are.
ok jan, you totally missed the point. 900 hook is not easier than b1080 because 900s are done with an inside kick, where as 1080s are done with an outside kick. THAT IS WHAT OUR DEFINITIONS ARE RIGHT NOW. the number not only denotes the spin, but what kick it is. it is a connotative meaning, just like people use fag as an insult, even if they are not implying that someone homosexual, or more recently myspace has come to stand for someones profile on a webpage, even though "my space" does not in any way imply that.
if you want to change them, you have to change ALL of them, not just backside tricks. backside is just one more way to describe a move. i truly dont understand why everyone is getting so worked up about it.
900 = 900 inside crescent. It's been like that since the beginning of time.
900 hook = 900 with a hook, thus the added hook after the 900. If that meant a 900 jacknife, it'd say "900 jacknife". 900 is the "basic" term, and the added term after is there to show the alteration. That's pretty simple.
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