View Full Version : Antoine: LEGS?
I know routines vary from person to person, but you do you have leg training strategies that have proved solid for you. I've done most things with decent results, but haven't gotten the crazy legs look that I want. I've passed out in the rack doing complete ATG squats so intensity isn't the problem. Have you had any luck with higher reps (like 20 or so)? I saw your pics from the Mr. Canada contest or whatever it was, and was seriously blown away by the difference from the videos on here. Any tips or insights would be really appreciated. This goes for anybody with serious wheels on here too? What has worked for YOU personally? Everybody says "squat squat squat" but there is more to it than that.
chicanerous
May-11-07, 09:43 PM
Get strong. You're not going to have big legs if you're not squatting serious weight.
You answered your own question. Squat, deadlift, leg press, lunge, front squat, lumberjack squat, step ups, etc. Just combine a bunch of those into a circuit workout to hit all parts of the muscle. Also, you can do a few all out straight-up jumps to really tire out yo' fibers.
mr popular
May-11-07, 10:27 PM
In general most people have legs that respond best to both high load, AND high volume training simultaneously. This is partly due to the fact that most bodybuilders only train them once a week, and also because they are such a huge and powerful muscle group.
In general that just means that if you have a legs day, perform 20-25 sets total, and concentrate on increasing the load about every third workout once you break through a standard repetition barrier.
As chicanerous said, you must increase the strength of your leg movements. (both big and small) to see the best results.
See the thing is that I've tried a lot of different things. I have leg development so I know it works, but the rate at which I'm progressing isn't really that great. I've never seen anybody except certain Olympic lifters squat deeper than I do, and I do it with 315 for reps. I've done more to parallel, but that feels really unnatural to me. So to me I feel that there is more to it. Like I said, intensity really isn't the problem because I go hard. I can go up in weight, but numbers are arbitrary to me. Size and muscle quality are what matters most.
I am thinking about incorporating some circuit training in based on Milos Sarcev methods. He has videos where he is doing 100lbs on the hack squat, and is dying. He always says weight isn't important if you can make it feel heavier than it is. The reason why I asked Antoine is because he's somebody I've seen go from having good legs to having legs relative to his body that equal any pro bodybuilder.
mr popular
May-11-07, 10:31 PM
How much are you eating every day? Exactly how many calories?
Right now I'm cutting actually so I do not expect to put size on. I just want to refine my training for my own knowledge, and future bulkatude use. My calories are still around 3000, but it's right near a ketosis diet so fat loss and muscle quality are all I'm after at the moment.
I know a great deal about nutrition so I'm fairly confident that area isn't my issue. I actually have decent quads too, but I want serious serious legs. I think there is a lot more to it than genetics or just using a lot of weight. Pyrros Dimas squats more than just about anybody for his weight, and he doesn't have big legs. Certain people have better different methods for developing their legs and that is what I'm after. Take Ronnie Coleman for example. Obviously HUGE legs but his seperation is crappy (crappy being relative haha), and even somebody like Frank Zane has more popping style cuts than he does. This is all due to training differences imo.
I think reps are the answer that I'm looking for, but this is where my problem is. My rep to max ratio is all messed up, and I'm not sure why. I am not a numbers guy, but am slightly concerned with doing much less weight for higher reps because I do not want to lose any size. I really don't want to make this sound so complex and ridiculous, but that tends to happen.
chicanerous
May-11-07, 10:52 PM
See the thing is that I've tried a lot of different things. I have leg development so I know it works, but the rate at which I'm progressing isn't really that great. I've never seen anybody except certain Olympic lifters squat deeper than I do, and I do it with 315 for reps. I've done more to parallel, but that feels really unnatural to me. So to me I feel that there is more to it. Like I said, intensity really isn't the problem because I go hard. I can go up in weight, but numbers are arbitrary to me. Size and muscle quality are what matters most.
I am thinking about incorporating some circuit training in based on Milos Sarcev methods. He has videos where he is doing 100lbs on the hack squat, and is dying. He always says weight isn't important if you can make it feel heavier than it is. The reason why I asked Antoine is because he's somebody I've seen go from having good legs to having legs relative to his body that equal any pro bodybuilder.
That's a good starting point then. Now, since you can handle decently heavy loads, you want to go for the high volume and you want to eat like crazy. You also want to use a variety of exercises and rotate them relatively frequently. Don't be afraid of machines either.
Also, keep track of volume and average load per rep. This will help you chart progression and help keep you from losing size if you drastically change your training methods. For example:
3x10x315 = 9450 lbs @ 315 lbs per rep
[Average load per rep] = [total volume] / [number of sets] / [average number of reps per set]
This is less useful if you use a large variety of loads during your workout. In that case, it's best to calculate based on intensity zones, but that's probably more statistical work than you need. Just be mindful of progression.
rockmonkey
May-12-07, 01:38 AM
eat loads, im not gonna go into that
i do 7 sets of squats starting off high rep then going low (i.e. 5-6 reps) then back up to 20 rep squats, thatl carve you out some man legs, then do leg presses and leg extensions
Ashtar
May-12-07, 06:03 AM
Don't forget the leg extension and leg curl :)
Kitosho
May-12-07, 06:31 PM
Pyrros Dimas squats more than just about anybody for his weight, and he doesn't have big legs.
You have to be kidding me.
Okay, my advice:
1. Make sure your squat form is fantastic.
2. Do front squats.
3. Lose fat.
4. Be realistic.
If you think Dimas doesn't have big legs, #4 may be your problem. You're talking about Coleman and Zane's seperation - come on, man. BOTH guys were roid using PROFESSIONAL bodybuilders. They were 2 of a small handful of guys with the genetics to win Pro BB'ing contests - not that that's any excuse, but you are not at the point in your training life where you need to be concerned with quad seperation. Just squat more, lose fat, and wear shorts in the sun and get a tan.
chicanerous
May-12-07, 06:37 PM
If you think Dimas doesn't have big legs, #4 may be your problem.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9946/dimas200mk9.jpg
Wtf, Pyrros Dimas is like 190 pounds at 5'8" or something, with little body fat, and little upper body mass except for his shoulders
"He doesn't have big legs"
http://www.hoc.gr/info/periodika/2o/images/9625.jpg
His legs are sooooo god damn small
compleks
May-12-07, 07:20 PM
Sexy.
Murlin
May-12-07, 07:57 PM
Fucking Dimas, epic. His squat jerk was(I'm not sure how he lifts now, haven't seen much of him lately) so shallow it was almost a press.
chicanerous
May-12-07, 08:07 PM
Fucking Dimas, epic. His squat jerk was(I'm not sure how he lifts now, haven't seen much of him lately) so shallow it was almost a press.
You haven't seen much of him lately because he retired.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4630/212324maxmw7.jpg
Murlin
May-12-07, 08:10 PM
You haven't seen much of him lately because he retired. I'm sure he still lifts, but not for the Olympic level.
Yeah that's what I figured, fucking legend.
mr popular
May-12-07, 08:38 PM
Frank Zane's legs weren't actually very impressive for a bodybuilder haha
except his calves, which were pretty cool.
And you can't really compare Olympic bodybuilders to anybody else, because it is just a whole different game.
Murlin
May-12-07, 08:40 PM
Olympic bodybuilders to anybody else, because it is just a whole different game.
Olympic Bodybuilders...?
mr popular
May-12-07, 08:42 PM
*sigh*........
Kitosho
May-12-07, 08:53 PM
*sigh*........
sigh
mr popular
May-12-07, 09:25 PM
Say now, who here besides me would like to see a picture of Goat's HYOOOGE, and RIPPED leg musculature?
anyone?
I honestly only do squats, straight leg deadlifts and calf raises at most once a week and my thighs are rather massive. I respond well to squats/presses of any kind but that's mainly due to genetics, methinks.
Say now, who here besides me would like to see a picture of Goat's HYOOOGE, and RIPPED leg musculature?
anyone?
Did I say I had that? No, so there you go. Where you go that from I have no idea. What I meant with Dimas is that he doesn't have big legs for the amount of weightlifting he did. His training volume was huge as were his weights. So in terms of pure size there is more to it than that. There is no criticism, just an observation to prove my point.
no calorie excess etc
enyway
Swartz
May-12-07, 11:45 PM
I honestly only do squats, straight leg deadlifts and calf raises at most once a week and my thighs are rather massive. I respond well to squats/presses of any kind but that's mainly due to genetics, methinks.
Did you have fairly thick legs to begin with or were they originally pretty small and you just developed it a lot?
I'm not sure why I ask you, our body types are a bit different. You're stockier and a little shorter for one.
I LOVE WORKING LEGS PISS IT'S TAKING ME 5-6 DAYS TO FUCKING HEAL BUT IT'S GREAT.
chicanerous
May-12-07, 11:55 PM
His training volume was huge
So, you have access to his training history and the Greek team's past training programs? Or, perhaps, you're just making an assumption to prove your point and, therein, not proving anything as you have no actual evidence?
Volume, caloric surplus, progressive overload are the factors that are going to create big legs. However, if you want legs the size of the aforementioned Coleman then, to start, you better hope you have some great genetics and a truckload of drugs. Otherwise, keep your expectations reasonable -- Antoine, like you originally referenced, would indeed be a good role model. So, then, it's just about you and the hard work and dedication you're willing to put in.
So, you have access to his training history and the Greek team's past training programs? Or, perhaps, you're just making an assumption to prove your point and, therein, not proving anything as you have no actual evidence?
Volume, caloric surplus, progressive overload are the factors that are going to create big legs. If you want legs the size of the aforementioned Coleman then, to start, you better hope you have some great genetics and a truckload of drugs.
I think he knows this (otherwise I'd simply type OWNED) and wants some sort of secret that will let him grow faster. Do it Lasse Viren style: Reindeer Milk :good:
I've lost the original meaning of this thread.
Use squat variations! They do wonders and I'm saying this being pitifully weak in them.
Sidenote: I skipped the knee brace, knees are doing pretty good, not perfect though.
Did you have fairly thick legs to begin with or were they originally pretty small and you just developed it a lot?
I'm not sure why I ask you, our body types are a bit different. You're stockier and a little shorter for one.
I LOVE WORKING LEGS PISS IT'S TAKING ME 5-6 DAYS TO FUCKING HEAL BUT IT'S GREAT.
My legs were always pretty big and I could already leg press more than most people in my gym when I started lifting at about 16 or so. This is balanced out by the fact that I suck at bench press lolol
mr popular
May-13-07, 07:54 AM
Pat: I was the same way haha. But now my bench press is slowly pushing ahead... thank god...
Rahf: Still improving your form?
Bertie
May-13-07, 07:58 AM
I just bounce on a trampoline alot. I don't really have any leg workout routines.
I fucked up my wrist so I've just been doing leg training for the past two weeks
So, you have access to his training history and the Greek team's past training programs? Or, perhaps, you're just making an assumption to prove your point and, therein, not proving anything as you have no actual evidence?
No, but I know how Olympic lifters generally train. You can watch videos of Dimas training online, and I've read a good bit about it. Olympic lifts are basically all squat power for at least 50% of their movement if not much more than that. The reps are low but overall volume and frequency is really high.
I'm not a "noob" of any sort so I'm not looking for any magical routines. However, everyone needs to analyze their training now and then to see what is working well and what isn't. I'm also not on excess calories now because I'm cutting. You guys read half a post and then take it the wrong way.
Did you have fairly thick legs to begin with or were they originally pretty small and you just developed it a lot?
I'm not sure why I ask you, our body types are a bit different. You're stockier and a little shorter for one.
I LOVE WORKING LEGS PISS IT'S TAKING ME 5-6 DAYS TO FUCKING HEAL BUT IT'S GREAT.
Bwahahah
Swartz
May-13-07, 11:16 AM
Bwahahah
Shut up.
chicanerous
May-13-07, 11:54 AM
No, but I know how Olympic lifters generally train. You can watch videos of Dimas training online, and I've read a good bit about it. Olympic lifts are basically all squat power for at least 50% of their movement if not much more than that. The reps are low but overall volume and frequency is really high.
Other than the catch, the squat portion of the classical lifts is all concentric muscle contraction. There is no eccentric stress. Eccentric muscle action is responsible for the majority of potential hypertrophy.
An Olympic lifter will also be very limited in terms of bulking up. At the Olympic level, big weight class shifts are not particularly common. The athlete has had an entire training career to stabilize in a class that his body is best suited to excell at.
When I say overload, a caloric surplus, and volume, what I'm really saying by volume is that there needs to be a high number of reps and a decent number of sets and the weight needs to come, at least, close to failure. This isn't volume in the statistical sense, but volume as a term to describe this type of training -- i.e. volume training.
I actually have a copy of the Greek training program that was used to prepare for Dimas' first two Olympics sitting right here in Arthur Drechsler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia. The frequency is high, but the volume per session definitely is not. Less than 25 total reps per exercise per session (3-4 exercises per session -- squat, snatch, C&J, front squat or optional exercise in various orders -- with a 30 minute break in the middle), but up to eleven sessions per week depending on the training cycle.
This does amount to a large amount of overall volume, but, per training session, the volume is quite low -- just enough to elict an optimal strength/power response.
In the case of Dimas, we definitely have overload, but we don't necessarily have a caloric surplus. We have statistical volume, but we do not have "volume training." Most of his lifts are going to be submaximal, concentric only (or with a deemphasized eccentric), and short in duration. This is why he does not have as large of a pair of legs as others (e.g. powerlifters) that can move the amount of weights that he can on the non-classical lifts.
I'm not a "noob" of any sort so I'm not looking for any magical routines. However, everyone needs to analyze their training now and then to see what is working well and what isn't. I'm also not on excess calories now because I'm cutting. You guys read half a post and then take it the wrong way.
So, what have you learned from this thread?
1. You have a unrealistic concept of natural leg size.
2. Strength and hypertrophy are not necessarily linked.
3. Caloric surplus, volume, and overload are what create big legs.
4. Professional bodybuilders add drugs to that equation.
BTW, we read the whole post, not half. Then we take it the "wrong way" because your perceptions are wrong in the first place. Also, anyone who feels the need to state that they are not a n00b is definitely more of a n00b than they think.
Karlnold
May-13-07, 12:03 PM
I fucked up my wrist so I've just been doing leg training for the past two weeks
How did this happen, Steven?
I don't remember, I think I rotated it like 1080 degrees while flinging a 45 plate around and then I continued to do presses on it for weeks
Karlnold
May-13-07, 12:52 PM
Maybe you chewed on it in your sleep?
compleks
May-13-07, 05:09 PM
I'm not a noob.
chicanerous
May-13-07, 05:45 PM
I'm not a noob.
You noob! :tongue:
Swartz
May-14-07, 10:32 AM
compleks plus comme simple doesn't know shit
That made no sense, Matthew
Swartz
May-14-07, 10:42 AM
Okay idiot, let me explain, which'll basically be the same damn thing:
I made a joke out of his screename. plus comme means "more like"
Therefore: compleks? More like "SIMPLE" lolololol
comprende?
Then I said he doesn't know shit.
What's so hard to understand? GET OUT OF MY LIFE.
It's hard to understand because I have brain damage
Swartz
May-14-07, 10:57 AM
Go sit in a corner RETARD.
antoine uses steroids.....
dont' expect him to admit it until he's retired and writing an auto-biography about the pressure to fit in with the "bodybuilding" clique
Antoine uses dat 'dere Cell-Tech.
Swartz
May-14-07, 07:32 PM
PLASMAVOL?
omg im gonna go pick some of that shit up at my local gnc man
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