Weights vs Elastic?

[twist]

I was wondering the pros and cons of each. Specifically, like training the shoulder muscles used in a simple standing front raise, you could do this with a dumbbell in each hand, or with the ends of the elastic stretchy stuff each hand, standing in the middle.

My gymnastic instructor said the elastic is better for what Im trying to accomplish, what do you guys think in general?

One obvious benefit of the elastic, is its easier to train more awkward stuff like iron cross, it seems like to do this with weights youd have to hang off a bar upside down or have some sort of modified assisted dip station.

Anyways, thoughts appreciated:smile:

[frankinstine]

i think for the awkward stuff like the iron cross, why not use machines(assisted dip) or elastic bands? i'm not sure how good it would be to do weight training up side down.

[Ashtar]

They're both good. You can use them in combination. That seems like the best way.

One problem with elastics is unlike weight which is consistant, they sometimes wear out over use and thus get easier to use, which is bad for progressive training.

For iron cross you could use a pulley stack at a gym if you could anchor it directly above your hand. You'd probably have to train one arm at a time unless you had a good setup, which could force you to lean a bit and alter the movement.

Weight training upside down is cool but inversion is dangerous if you jump into it too suddenly. If you're hanging by feet/knees you also have to realize that the forces on your spine are going to be far greater than what you would experience when actually doing the iron cross. The iron cross is no worse than a pullup on the spine, but doing it inverted (half your bodyweight each dumbbell) is probably more than twice. The lower (feetwise) on your body you go, the more the comparative load multiplied. That's a tolerance you'd want to train separately beforehand (like mimicking a pullup motion with dumbbells) so that it's not another risk to worry about and you can focus on the arms.

Overall, just staying rightside up is much simpler and safer and specific to the movement. Plus you don't have to worry about blood rushing to your head and passing out and your dog raping you.

[Thunderheart]

i think for the awkward stuff like the iron cross, why not use machines(assisted dip) or elastic bands? i'm not sure how good it would be to do weight training up side down.

It's been my understanding for a long time that machines aren't the greatest thing in the world to build joint strength and stability. They are best for muscle isolation, or so I have been told for a long long time by many a folk.

[anfeyd]

They are best for muscle isolation, or so I have been told for a long long time by many a folk.

Eh...?


Anyways, what in the world are your goals?

Elastic bands lack an eccentric phase (well, it doesn't lack it but there is no eccentric tension).

[frankinstine]

It's been my understanding for a long time that machines aren't the greatest thing in the world to build joint strength and stability. They are best for muscle isolation, or so I have been told for a long long time by many a folk.

true, but some moves are hard to find a way to train at all. so, a machine is better than nothing.

[Ashtar]

That only applies to machines with fixed ranges of motion. Things like cable machines are fine. Many prime movers serve as stabilizers for other movements, so all you do is miss out on stabilizing that one skill, which may not really matter much at all to what you're training for anyway. If you want a stable iron cross, you do the iron cross.

As for joint strength, what is that exactly anyway? Badly designed or improperly adjusted machines might place shearing forces on a joint which can hurt them, but I'm not sure why there would be a difference in joint strength otherwise.

[compleks]

My gymnastic instructor said the elastic is better for what Im trying to accomplish, what do you guys think in general?

If you're goal is to look like a complete fag, then elastic is the way to go.


I'm just kidding, it's all resistance.

[chicanerous]

Elastic makes sense for gymnastics because there is constant and increasing tension throughout the motion, which mimics the change in leverage found by transitioning through or lowering into a strength hold.

Elastic bands lack an eccentric phase (well, it doesn't lack it but there is no eccentric tension).
As long as you're resisting motion as the muscles are lengthening, you've fulfilled the requirement for eccentric muscle action, so bands do have an eccentric phase.

I'm not sure what you mean by "eccentric tension." If anything, bands do have eccentric tension. This is the reason why you can do overspeed eccentrics with them. A barbell, on the other hand, does not have eccentric tension.

[Thunderheart]

Joint strength meaning what you get from using free weights... The stability you gain from using freeweights is often hard to obtain the same results with machines. Not all though, as stated by someone else.

[Thunderheart]

Eh...?





I'm referring to machines. Most nautilus type machines do little or nothing for your .. say.. elbow's ability to balance out weight, because it's already taken care of with the machines flow.

[anfeyd]

As long as you're resisting motion as the muscles are lengthening, you've fulfilled the requirement for eccentric muscle action, so bands do have an eccentric phase.

I'm not sure what you mean by "eccentric tension." If anything, bands do have eccentric tension. This is the reason why you can do overspeed eccentrics with them. A barbell, on the other hand, does not have eccentric tension.

My post may have been wrong, or wrong because I worded it incorrectly.

What I meant was, the OP said shoulder raises using a band. Mentally I envisioned the person stepping on the band or some band fastened to the floor (which was an assumption on my part). The concentric would be overcomming the band but the eccentric portion would be aided because the band would help you lower your arm back down because of the stretch. The tension I was reffering to I guess was overall use of a muscle.

[Steve]

Use both at the same time

[twist]

My post may have been wrong, or wrong because I worded it incorrectly.

What I meant was, the OP said shoulder raises using a band. Mentally I envisioned the person stepping on the band or some band fastened to the floor (which was an assumption on my part). The concentric would be overcomming the band but the eccentric portion would be aided because the band would help you lower your arm back down because of the stretch. The tension I was reffering to I guess was overall use of a muscle.

^^ Yeah thats what I meant, another thing im gonna do is wrap it around something and do the opposite, going from straight above my head to infront of me or further.

Wouldnt the aid you get from the bands stretchiness on the way down be similar to the aid you get from the weight of gravity on the negative portion of any excersize? Or did I misunderstand you.

Anyways, thanks i think i got my question answered well, chicanerous point about how elastic will get harder the further you stretch it was a good one, seems like one of the main differences between the two.

thanks again:ogre::wicked::smile:

[chicanerous]

Wouldnt the aid you get from the bands stretchiness on the way down be similar to the aid you get from the weight of gravity on the negative portion of any excersize? Or did I misunderstand you.
Yes. Although "aid" is the wrong word. The point of an eccentric is to actively resist movement (i.e. allowing your muscles to lengthen under tension). You resist force with a band, just as you do with a barbell where, instead of elastic force, you have the force of gravity.

A proper use of "aid" in regards to an eccentric would be, for example, on a reverse band press (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=40365&tid=101), where the bar gets lighter the further it descends. For this to happen, the tension at the band's most lengthened point, must still be less than the weight of the bar, otherwise, at some point in the ROM, you will hit an equilibrium point whereupon you will switch from resisting motion to causing motion. (In the example of the reverse band press, this equilibrium point would be to go from lowering the weight to actually pulling it down.)

What I meant was, the OP said shoulder raises using a band. Mentally I envisioned the person stepping on the band or some band fastened to the floor (which was an assumption on my part). The concentric would be overcomming the band but the eccentric portion would be aided because the band would help you lower your arm back down because of the stretch. The tension I was reffering to I guess was overall use of a muscle.
See above. The band does not aid you.

[Ashtar]

I'm referring to machines. Most nautilus type machines do little or nothing for your .. say.. elbow's ability to balance out weight, because it's already taken care of with the machines flow.What is the elbow's ability to balance out weight?