View Full Version : OAC neg progrrresssion
Ha!
I've nailed this a few times now with slight concentric movement as well! The best I've done would be a 1/4 OAC. This isn't one of my best tries, it's like uhh... third neg of the day. Training done GTG way btw.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Eszh5gXAbCI
Any opinions, critique or advice? I fear I still have some training to do before actually nailing it.
EDIT: Haha, as rock_ten and chicanerous righteously noted, it wasn't a full negative. Yeah, I know, I wasn't going for a full negative. As of late I've been doing low-range negatives and trying to add small concentric movements to it, and it's been working well for me thus far. However, I take it you guys are on the opinion that full ROM pure negative would be better? ... or? Advice is appriciated! Thanks for the both of you thus far :good:
- Ade
rock_ten
Aug-01-07, 08:10 AM
That was like less than half a negative, dude. Mostly just a static hold at the top.
chicanerous
Aug-01-07, 08:10 AM
It's more like half of a negative. You know you can do a full negative when you can pause the movement at any point in the ROM. Keep working at it.
Make sure your bilateral pull-up strength is sufficient before you start doing unilateral negatives. If your shoulders, particularly, can't handle the stress toward the bottom of the ROM, you can easily injure tendons.
That was like less than half a negative, dude. Mostly just a static hold at the top.
Yes, this is true. I vary it from day to day. Wasn't going for full ROM this time, I'm trying to get a small concentric on the top instead.
- Ade
It's more like half of a negative. You know you can do a full negative when you can pause the movement at any point in the ROM. Keep working at it.
Yeh! As I said, I wasn't really going for that. I didn't hold it 'till failure. I can do a sloppy full ROM (not nearly good enough haha, I shall keep working on that) negative and some low range concentrics on the top. But yeah, thanks!
Make sure your bilateral pull-up strength is sufficient before you start doing unilateral negatives. If your shoulders, particularly, can't handle the stress toward the bottom of the ROM, you can easily injure tendons.
I've been doing these for a while, and I haven't had any problems whatsoever, cept for a slight pain in the elbow during the first few weeks, so I guess I'm safe. Will keep an eye out still, thanks for the advice! The last time I checked I could easily pull up 30 kilograms with me on a bodyweight of 66 kg.
- Ade
Kon-El
Aug-01-07, 08:29 AM
i was where u r about 6 months ago but then i hurt i my wrist and had to stop. the interesting part is that i picked it up again pretty fast by focusing more on heavy weighted widegrips and narrow chins,( @ 78 k i can chin 60k for a rep or two) i only tried concentrics from full stretch once in a while and negatives even less often. and recently i found i could do 2/3 an OAC if i started with a tiny jump. now it seems im back to about half. so wat am i gettin to.. nothing really, my results have just been a lil erratic is all. my biggest concern is how often i should train fro the OAC now that ive switched to a bodyweight routine (plus rom. dl and back squats)
how often are you training for it, few times a week? or more like greasing the groove style (if thats the right way to put it).
chicanerous
Aug-01-07, 08:32 AM
Yes, a full ROM negative would be better. Do it slow and controlled.
Partial concentrics have a lot of merit, but partial eccentrics are mostly useless. Eccentric strength is up to 130% that of concentric, so, if, at any time, you can't do a full ROM eccentric, the load you're using is much too high. In the case of the OAC, this means that if you can't control a full negative, you aren't ready to work on the skill directly and should resume bilateral work until you've built sufficient transferable strength to safely and effectively work with the unilateral eccentric ROM.
i was where u r about 6 months ago but then i hurt i my wrist and had to stop. the interesting part is that i picked it up again pretty fast by focusing more on heavy weighted widegrips and narrow chins,( @ 78 k i can chin 60k for a rep or two) i only tried concentrics from full stretch once in a while and negatives even less often. and recently i found i could do 2/3 an OAC if i started with a tiny jump. now it seems im back to about half. so wat am i gettin to.. nothing really, my results have just been a lil erratic is all. my biggest concern is how often i should train fro the OAC now that ive switched to a bodyweight routine (plus rom. dl and back squats)
Nice post dude. Stuff like this is always interesting to read :good:
Even though the method you use is really good, training with heavy weights isn't really possible / recommendable for me at the moment, as I don't go to a gym and don't really feel like wasting money right now. The only thing I lack, actually, are the weighted chins. Ha :/
Out of curiosity, how did you hurt your wrist? I've never had any problems with my wrists before, but I got a sharp sting on my right one after the last set I pulled, which has never happened before. It doesn't seem like anything too bad thou, the arm is working fine and with full ROM...
how often are you training for it, few times a week? or more like greasing the groove style (if thats the right way to put it).
I just had a major pause from training (due to employement issues), a month or so, and I've only been training it again for a few days, so I haven't really been doing anything with a plan. I've been really uhh... I haven't really done anything systhematic as of late, just when I feel like it.
USUALLY, HOWEVER, when going for GTG training, as I'm now going to do again, I try to train a small amount of movements(ie. 3: OAC, planche, pistol (+glute ham raise)) for 4-5 days a week on several mini-sessions during the days. It seems to work wonders, and it doesn't leave me sore either. It's the best way to get planches, pike presses and various handstand push-up variations IMO.
- Ade
rock_ten
Aug-01-07, 08:54 AM
I got a sharp sting on my right one after the last set I pulled, which has never happened before. It doesn't seem like anything too bad thou, the arm is working fine and with full ROM...
Do you mean that the pain came once you had finished the set and released the load from your hand (and wrist)?
Kon-El
Aug-01-07, 08:56 AM
thanks man, that sounds pretty good. although u could prolly create some resistance, just fill a school bag with books or have a kid hang on to ur waist. as for how i hurt my wrist, it was from boxing :p i hadnt boxed in a while and all of a sudden I felt really strong during my 'light session' i decided to go heavier but i wasn't wearing wraps or gloves. a bad hook messed up my wrist, but being the stubborn idiot i am, i tried again to check if it hurt n messed it up even more.. i certainly regretted that.
good luck with the OAC. im currently working bodyweight exercises both to do them and also as a little experiment to c how the strength transfers to weight lifting, especially since im not as light as most ppl ive seen who do planches and OACs
chicanerous
Aug-01-07, 08:57 AM
Even though the method you use is really good, training with heavy weights isn't really possible / recommendable for me at the moment, as I don't go to a gym and don't really feel like wasting money right now. The only thing I lack, actually, are the weighted chins. Ha :/
How many unweighted chins can you do?
Yes, a full ROM negative would be better. Do it slow and controlled.
Mm... I have a question regarding this. I wrote it here ** (on the bottom of the msg)
Partial concentrics have a lot of merit, but partial eccentrics are mostly useless.
How about static holds, then? Useful / useless?
I really haven't done statics... well, ever... neither in my planche training, and I don't know if I would've gotten the straddle faster WITH them. Huh, so what's the deal?
Eccentric strength is up to 130% that of concentric, so, if, at any time, you can't do a full ROM eccentric, the load you're using is much too high. In the case of the OAC, this means that if you can't control a full negative, you aren't ready to work on the skill directly and should resume bilateral work until you've built sufficient transferable strength to safely and effectively work with the unilateral eccentric ROM.
When I try, I can lock an OAC on the top of the movement and hang there, but then my strength suddenly vanishes and I drop w/o actually doing a negative. I thought a negative wouldn't really count as a negative if you could stop the movement? But wait... you said about 'being able to stop the movement AT ANY POINT'. Ha! Okay. Well, that I cannot do.
**
Also... Importantish bit:
I can just do a slow-ish negative which I could stop during the movement (before 90 degrees, after that I can't). BUT! But I don't feel them (negatives) burning my muscles as much as those "going up, going down a bit, going back up, going down a bit, going back up" thingies, which is why I have been concentrating on them instead of full ROM negs. Good or bad?
ELABORATION:
What I actually was striving for, was going down a little bit (from the top), pulling myself back up and then lowering myself again. And up. And repeat. Granted, I didn't succeed very well anymore, but this does burn my muscles WAY more than normal negs do. Would you consider this as a good option along with a few full ROM negs? Or should I focus on the negs altogether? OFC, I seem to get results the way I'm training, but if you guys think it's not the best way, then I will chuck it.
And ha, it re-heeaally wasn't my best attempt. :bad:
It was actually my last night of work (I quit 2 weeks in advance, now I have some extra free time... ha!) so I decided to celebrate that with some OAC training, so haha.
*INSERT MORE PATHETIC EXCUSES HERE*
You've been very helpful chicanerous, I appriciate it.
- Ade
How many unweighted chins can you do?
The last time I tried... well, it was a while ago, but back then I could do 17 consecutive chins (clean as far as I could tell, going completely down etc), then I stopped training them.
Do you mean that the pain came once you had finished the set and released the load from your hand (and wrist)?
Yes. I didn't even notice it until a little while after when I flexed my wrist.
thanks man, that sounds pretty good. although u could prolly create some resistance, just fill a school bag with books or have a kid hang on to ur waist.
I was actually using my punching bag (17 kilograms) a while ago, but it's too light for me now. Ha!
as for how i hurt my wrist, it was from boxing :p i hadnt boxed in a while and all of a sudden I felt really strong during my 'light session' i decided to go heavier but i wasn't wearing wraps or gloves. a bad hook messed up my wrist, but being the stubborn idiot i am, i tried again to check if it hurt n messed it up even more.. i certainly regretted that.
Hahaha! Sorry, but that's just too hilarious :tongue: Certainly makes you smarter for the future, hahaha :good:
good luck with the OAC. im currently working bodyweight exercises both to do them and also as a little experiment to c how the strength transfers to weight lifting, especially since im not as light as most ppl ive seen who do planches and OACs
Yeah, true. Some gymnasts are pretty heavy thou, so it should be possible still.
- Ade
rock_ten
Aug-01-07, 09:15 AM
Yes. I didn't even notice it until a little while after when I flexed my wrist.
ah ok I meant "immidiately after.." - its not what I thought it might be.
ah ok I meant "immidiately after.." - its not what I thought it might be.
What'd you think it might be? I'd like to know for future reference :good:
- Ade
rock_ten
Aug-01-07, 09:22 AM
A gay problem I have with my weak 6.5" wrists where a big pain flares up immidiately after releasing a load (putting down a deadlift, releasing my tyre when flipping it, etc). I can avoid it most of the time with careful warmups and being gentle in the exercise.
chicanerous
Aug-01-07, 09:37 AM
How about static holds, then? Useful / useless?
Static holds only build strength at whatever point in the ROM that you're holding at. A OAC is a dynamic movement, so static holds aren't very useful. A planche, on the other hand, is a static movement, so isometrics are extremely useful.
When I try, I can lock an OAC on the top of the movement and hang there, but then my strength suddenly vanishes and I drop w/o actually doing a negative. I thought a negative wouldn't really count as a negative if you could stop the movement? But wait... you said about 'being able to stop the movement AT ANY POINT'. Ha! Okay. Well, that I cannot do.
The definition of a negative/eccentric is having the target muscle(s) lengthen under tension. If you can't stop the negative at a point in the ROM or, at least, slow it severely, you can't generate enough tension to resist movement and, therefore, your eccentric is having little to no effect. If you're just falling through the ROM, like you are in the video, you're not deriving the benefit of the eccentric. (Though you are getting whatever benefit the isometric hold at the top is giving you.)
I can just do a slow-ish negative which I could stop during the movement (before 90 degrees, after that I can't). BUT! But I don't feel them (negatives) burning my muscles as much as those "going up, going down a bit, going back up, going down a bit, going back up" thingies, which is why I have been concentrating on them instead of full ROM negs. Good or bad?
There's a leverage advantage in that top portion of the ROM. The movement gets exponentially harder as you move towards the bottom of the ROM. It's not very surprising that you can hold the top portion just fine, but have trouble with the bottom. This tells me that your overall pulling strength is lacking and that it's likely a bit early to be emphasizing the OAC. Instead, you need to work on your bilateral strength. You should be able to knock out 20-30 chin-ups with great form and then add within a few KGs of your bodyweight for a single or double before you should think about emphasizing unilateral work. (At 66 kg, you should shoot for about 50-60 kg attached on weighted chins for a clean rep from a dead hang.)
ELABORATION:
What I actually was striving for, was going down a little bit (from the top), pulling myself back up and then lowering myself again. And up. And repeat. Granted, I didn't succeed very well anymore, but this does burn my muscles WAY more than normal negs do. Would you consider this as a good option along with a few full ROM negs? Or should I focus on the negs altogether? OFC, I seem to get results the way I'm training, but if you guys think it's not the best way, then I will chuck it.
I would keep doing them, but I would spend most of your time working on bilateral chin-ups until you have sufficient strength to really take advantage of this unilateral work. You'll get there eventually, but you have to put in the prerequisite work first.
loads of stuff
That was one of the most informative posts I have ever read on TT.
You should be able to knock out 20-30 chin-ups with great form and then add within a few KGs of your bodyweight for a single or double before you should think about emphasizing unilateral work. (At 66 kg, you should shoot for about 50-60 kg attached on weighted chins for a clean rep from a dead hang.)
I'm pretty sure I can kill over 20 chins, but hm... Weighted chin-ups is just going to be a problem. I can add some 30 kilograms by using my boxing bag and some other stuff I have, but 50 to sixty kilograms will be hard. Well, I'll figure something out for sure! A gym would mess with my present training patterns :dead:
I would keep doing them, but I would spend most of your time working on bilateral chin-ups until you have sufficient strength to really take advantage of this unilateral work. You'll get there eventually, but you have to put in the prerequisite work first.
Cool, I will do that then! Thanks for everything, this more than probably saved me a lot of time, trial-and-error, risk of injury and overall trouble :smile: :good:
So, off to kidnap one of 'em neighbours kids...
- Ade
A gay problem I have with my weak 6.5" wrists where a big pain flares up immidiately after releasing a load (putting down a deadlift, releasing my tyre when flipping it, etc). I can avoid it most of the time with careful warmups and being gentle in the exercise.
As gay as this? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RSsJ19sy3JI)
Sounds painful though, shit like that is... well, shit :(
- Ade
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