Overloaded with data!

[Xeno]

Hello everyone.

Well recently I've felt inclined to take a change and start eating better and working out. I've worked out in the past, but with not too much to show for it. (I'd have to assume my nutrition habits were off.)

I've been reading a bunch nutrition and weight training articles (including just about all of the nutrition articles on this site), but it seems like so much!

Do any of you have any tips on where to start, and how to go about it all? I'd love to start eating healthy and working out, but I seem to be at a roadblock.


Thank You,
Richard

[compleks]

No worries mate. Welcome to TT.

It's going to be hard to give you a straight answer, as everyone has different opinions etc... Also, because your question is quite vague, there wont be a definitive answer.

I go through the same problem as you whenever I start learning something new. I get too bogged down in the details and everything seems to overwhelming. Analysis paralysis, as some people might call.

I went through this for a long time when I first set out to learn about health and nutrition (and training). I would read everything, and spend hours planning out diets, schedules, and training programs, without actually taking any action.
I don't regret spending so much time learning, because it's all knowledge I may need one day. But the one thing I do regret, and so will you, is not taking action earlier.

It doesn't matter how little you think you know. Take some small steps today (right now) that will change you for the better. Even if it's something simple, like cutting something bad from your diet, or correcting your posture as you read this.

Even if you start training without the worlds greatest program, atleast you are doing something, and you can always make changes as you learn more. Same thing with your diet.



Okay. As for the actual information, keep it simple. I can't even recall the amount of articles I have read and forgotten over the last few years. Blood type diets, macronutrient combinations, meal timing, effects of various foods on metabolism and hormone production, calculating ideal protein/carbohydrate/fat consumption, etc... etc... (and that's just about dieting)
What I can recall is the amount of times this information has come in handy so far... Zero! Sure, some of it is useful to know I guess, but it's not important.

These days, the only information I use are the basic (Diet and Training). Believe it or know, you already know most of the basics to dieting.
Eat a variety of healthy foods.
Avoid overly processed foods.
Eat foods as close to natural as possible (wholemeal bread as opposed to white bread)
Drink plenty of water.
Eat a balanced diet, consisting of protein, carbohydrates, and healthy fats.
Consume alot of fresh fruit and vegetables.

As for training, again, keep it simple.
This is a little harder to answer, because it will depends alot on what you are training for.

I have to get going now, but I will come back later and see how things are going.

Take care.

[Xeno]

Hey compleks. Thanks for the reply. :)

I do apologize for the vagueness of my post. I guess I have a habit of acting before thinking.. and apparently for the wrong things :D

I've been reading a lot about counting your calories, proteins, carbs and fats. One guy said to eat 1 gram of protein per pound that you weigh, and to do this every day. Then for fat, it should be about 25% of daily calories. And the rest should be carbs. Something along those lines.
I'm just finding it really hard thinking what exactly to eat to fulfill those numbers, and how to prepare it and stuff. Frozen fruit, whey protein, eggs, tuna! ahhhhh!!!


In terms of training, I don't want to be like one of those professional weight lifters. :D I'm not a naturally heavy person. If anything, I guess I'm probably more towards naturally skinny, but then again, not too skinny.

Not to sound weird or anything, but Juji's body is pretty solid and would be my goal body type.

;) I appreciate your willingness to help a noob out. I guess I just need a push in the right direction, because right now I'm very confused. I'd hire a personal trainer, but I don't have the money for that :D and apparently there's a bunch of them that don't know what they're doing.


Thanks Again

[mr popular]

The basics of diet:

1) To gain mucle, eat more calories than you burn. To simplify this for the first time, take your bodyweight in pounds and multiply it by 20. Eat that many calories daily, and if you can gain between 3-5lbs each month with this equation, then you know it is right for you.

If you gain more than 5lbs steadily, try your lbs.bodyweightx19. If less than 3lbs, you either ARENT BEING CONSISTANT, or you need to try bodyweightx21. But normally this is a dedication problem.

2) everybody needs more protein. Aim for a minimum of your bodyweight (lbs) in grams of protein daily.

3) Avoid sugars, and trans fats. Eat plenty of fiber and drink plenty of water.

4) learn to read nutrition labels

5) to lose fat, eat less calories than you burn and increase protein greatly to prevent muscle loss. (heavy lifting is also necessary here). I personally recommend keeping calories at maintenance levels, and simply increasing cardio rather than cutting calories drastically.

The basics of training:
1) the way you train is focused around your goals.

2) to gain size, work each muscle a minimum of once each week, strengthening every muscle group with basic movements. Your exercises should be ones you can aggressively add weight to over time, increasing your strength for reps.

3) to gain strength without size, do the above for less repitions, and simply don't gain any weight.

4) cardio is good but don't do it excessively.

5) Learn how to squat, deadlift, bench press, and row correctly with good safe form. These, in my opinion, are the more technical lifts.

[mr popular]

To look like jujimufu:
1) eat a rigorously healthy diet that include an ample variety of fruits and vegetables. Your meals should be protein based, and include EITHER a carbohydrate source OR a fat source.
2) eat 6-8 meals every day.
3) strengthen your body with squats, and deadlifts.
4) trick regularly
5) maintain low bodyfat
6) tan
7) grow long blond hair
8) get a face transplant
9) shave your legs
10) make goofy faces

[Rahf]

No worries mate. Welcome to TT.

It's going to be hard to give you a straight answer, as everyone has different opinions etc... Also, because your question is quite vague, there wont be a definitive answer.

I go through the same problem as you whenever I start learning something new. I get too bogged down in the details and everything seems to overwhelming. Analysis paralysis, as some people might call.

I went through this for a long time when I first set out to learn about health and nutrition (and training). I would read everything, and spend hours planning out diets, schedules, and training programs, without actually taking any action.
I don't regret spending so much time learning, because it's all knowledge I may need one day. But the one thing I do regret, and so will you, is not taking action earlier.

It doesn't matter how little you think you know. Take some small steps today (right now) that will change you for the better. Even if it's something simple, like cutting something bad from your diet, or correcting your posture as you read this.

Even if you start training without the worlds greatest program, atleast you are doing something, and you can always make changes as you learn more. Same thing with your diet.



Okay. As for the actual information, keep it simple. I can't even recall the amount of articles I have read and forgotten over the last few years. Blood type diets, macronutrient combinations, meal timing, effects of various foods on metabolism and hormone production, calculating ideal protein/carbohydrate/fat consumption, etc... etc... (and that's just about dieting)
What I can recall is the amount of times this information has come in handy so far... Zero! Sure, some of it is useful to know I guess, but it's not important.

These days, the only information I use are the basic (Diet and Training). Believe it or know, you already know most of the basics to dieting.
Eat a variety of healthy foods.
Avoid overly processed foods.
Eat foods as close to natural as possible (wholemeal bread as opposed to white bread)
Drink plenty of water.
Eat a balanced diet, consisting of protein, carbohydrates, and healthy fats.
Consume alot of fresh fruit and vegetables.

As for training, again, keep it simple.
This is a little harder to answer, because it will depends alot on what you are training for.

I have to get going now, but I will come back later and see how things are going.

Take care.

:good:

Hey compleks. Thanks for the reply. :)

I do apologize for the vagueness of my post. I guess I have a habit of acting before thinking.. and apparently for the wrong things :D

I've been reading a lot about counting your calories, proteins, carbs and fats. One guy said to eat 1 gram of protein per pound that you weigh, and to do this every day. Then for fat, it should be about 25% of daily calories. And the rest should be carbs. Something along those lines.
I'm just finding it really hard thinking what exactly to eat to fulfill those numbers, and how to prepare it and stuff. Frozen fruit, whey protein, eggs, tuna! ahhhhh!!!


In terms of training, I don't want to be like one of those professional weight lifters. :D I'm not a naturally heavy person. If anything, I guess I'm probably more towards naturally skinny, but then again, not too skinny.

Not to sound weird or anything, but Juji's body is pretty solid and would be my goal body type.

;) I appreciate your willingness to help a noob out. I guess I just need a push in the right direction, because right now I'm very confused. I'd hire a personal trainer, but I don't have the money for that :D and apparently there's a bunch of them that don't know what they're doing.


Thanks Again

An important aspect when you take in new information is to be abit critical to the source. If someone comes up to you and says that this or that concept is the best around you need to question them, why is it the best? What is so fantastic about it? Does he or she have any stable proof?

In the beginning it is important to keep it fairly simple. Analyse your current diet first and see what changes you can make to still feel comfortable but at the same time lead towards your personal goal. When it comes to training it is also vital to keep it simple. If you haven't had much physical activity in the past you need to "break your body in" and have it adapt to your new life. Do not go overboard on resistance training, 3 times a week is enough if you're a fresh newbie.

The 3 main principles in order to get results are: Nutrition, rest and training. If one of them falls, the others will follow. You need to maintain all three criteria in order to do progress.

Keep us posted mate.

[Xeno]

Wow ;) I appreciate all the tips guys. (especially #'s 6-10 on the 'to look like jujimufu list')

I'm about to order some whey protein powder: http://www26.netrition.com/designer_page.html

dextrose:
http://www25.netrition.com/now_dextrose_page.html

maybe L-Glutamine:
http://www23.netrition.com/eas_glutamine_page.html

And some omega-3 fish oil stuff. :D


The whey protein and dextrose would be for a post-workout drink. But yea, for now I think I'm just going to try and incorporate eating more healthy (unprocessed stuff, veggies, etc) instead of jumping to a specifically planned meal regimen.

I would eventually like to have a planned regimen (where I'm eating the right amount of protein/carbs/fats per day, but for now I think that's too big of a jump, and takes alot more planning.

For now I plan to follow this guy's work out routine, and maybe morph it more towards my liking (http://www.intense-workout.com/weight_training.html). Although I'm not sure if that's geared more towards bulking up or what. (again, not to sound gay or anything but should I be doing more reps at a lower weight for a bodytype similar to juji's?)

I've been going to this website for alot of my research http://www.intense-workout.com/.
From what I can tell, he seems to know what he's talking about.


Thank you all ;)
and thank you for excusing the noobiness i am emitting.
I'm starting to feel a little less confused, but I do know that i have quite a while to go before I get into a routine.

[compleks]

I assume you have a gym membership then?

What exactly are your training goals?


This should help a bit with your diet:

Protein Sources:
· Chicken and turkey breasts, thighs or mince (all lean)
· Eye fillet, sirloin, or rump steak etc…
· Pork / Lamb / Venison, Lean Ham, etc...
· Fresh Hoki, Snapper, Gurnard, Dory, Salmon, Swordfish, (seafood) etc…
· Canned Tuna, Salmon, Sardines etc… in water or brine
· Eggs
· Cottage Cheese, low fat
· Natural Yogurt, low fat
· Milk, cheese & other low fat dairy products.

Carbohydrate & Fibre Sources:
· Fresh fruit and vegetables.
· Sweet potatoes, pumpkin & squash
· Yams, parsnips & other root vegetables
· Corn, oats wheat & other grains.
· Wholegrain Flours, Breads & Pastas.
· Bran, weet-bix & shredded wheat cereals.
· Ancient grains (amaranth, millet, teth, etc).
· Basmati, brown & wild rice.
· Raw nuts and seeds,
· Beans, lentils & other pulses, etc.

Fat Sources:
· Flaxseed, hempseed, evening primrose, almond, canola, olive and most other oils.
· Salmon, cod, halibut, shellfish & other oily fish.
· Raw nuts & seeds.
· Peanut butter, or other nut butters

It's not the be all and end all, but it gives you a pretty good idea of what you should look for when shopping.

[Xeno]

Actually right now I'm going to start with my weight bench. But I'm definitely joining a gym soon.

What exactly are your training goals?

I don't really know how to answer that. I want to put on some muscle and tone it up i suppose, but I also wanna be athletic. I know that's a stupid answer, but yea.. :eh:
I feel stupid saying "i want my body to be like that guys," because I suppose that doesn't really answer the question on what my training goal is.


And thanks alot for that list :D

[Rahf]

Do not use the word tone. Tone is not a word that describes muscle definition.

A few more rules for working out and eating right is:

- Eating more calories than you use will build muscle (and fat).
- Eating less calories will result in a loss of weight.
- Eating the same amount of calories you use everyday will result in no changes.
- You cannot hope to build muscle unless you are on a calorie excess.
- You will not lose fat while at the same time building muscle, it is physiologically impossible unless you use illegal substances.
- "Tone" is not a word for muscle definition. It describes muscle tension (Flex your biceps, you have now achieved tonus).

[Karlnold]

To look like jujimufu:
1) eat a rigorously healthy diet that include an ample variety of fruits and vegetables. Your meals should be protein based, and include EITHER a carbohydrate source OR a fat source.
2) eat 6-8 meals every day.
3) strengthen your body with squats, and deadlifts.
4) trick regularly
5) maintain low bodyfat
6) tan
7) grow long blond hair
8) get a face transplant
9) shave your legs
10) make goofy faces

you've missed one thing.

[frozenpeon]

you've missed one thing.

Well actually, two things are missing:

1-wear a speedo
2-Sprint on the road with it.


maybe L-Glutamine:
http://www23.netrition.com/eas_glutamine_page.html


Glutamine is a waste of money, I suggest you use this money for ZMA instead.

[mr popular]

I suggest you save your money for FOOD and a GYM MEMBERSHIP rather than a bunch of supplements you don't need at this point.

The only supplements that MIGHT be appropriate right now would be whey protein, and maybe a complete multivitamin.

Other than that, the OP needs to focus on: eating healthier, eating more, learning the basic lifts, and training them to be stronger.

Karlnold: Out of curiosity, what one thing did I miss?

[Xeno]

I suggest you save your money for FOOD and a GYM MEMBERSHIP rather than a bunch of supplements you don't need at this point.


hmm i was thinking of getting those things (the whey protein and dextrose) for a post workout shake (which seems to be pretty important.)

and that omega-3 fish oil stuff seems pretty cool. :D

[compleks]

That would be alright, but I wouldn't bother with anything else at this stage.

Your number one priority should be, as Mr. Popular said, making sure that your diet is in order. Theres no point going out and buying supplements if you are eating lucky charms for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

[mr popular]

I eat generic honey nut cheerios in the morning nowadays. + a banana and a choclate+orange juice protein drink.

it's become a habit of mine...

[compleks]

I eat 2 eggs and 1 slice of toast.

I hate cutting.

[mr popular]

good lord man. haha

Why do you have to cut your calories that dramatically? Is it really that difficult for you to lose the weight?

For me cutting simply involves keep my protein and fat exactly where it's at, and eliminating sugar from diet entirely, and no carbohydrates (except vegetables) after 6pm. Besides that I do light cardio 3-6 times a week.

But then again I avoid gaining very much fat when I'm bulking up anyway... haha

How much do you weigh right now Compleks?

[compleks]

Right now I weight about 87kgs (191lbs), down from 94kgs (207lbs).

I can actually drop the weight quite quickly, but tend to put it back on even quicker. After loosing 13kgs for my first fight I managed to put it all back on in just 10 days (ofcourse that was alot of water weight and carbs after a 10 day binge).

Anyway, I'm trying to get 'into shape' for my next fight and am still experimenting with my dieting etc...

[mr popular]

Shux man. good luck.

For my fights I always just naturally fell into any of the lightweight categories easily, even going from different martial arts.

But obviously I haven't competed in a while or else I wouldn't be gaining the way i do. haha

[compleks]

I could be eating more. To be honest, I really don't need to drop anymore weight.

If anyone else was doing what I'm doing, I would advise against it. But, I figure now is a good time to push myself and trial different methods while my fights aren't particularly important.
I also want to see how lean I can actually get, since it's something I've never really done much in the past. The trouble is trying to balance my diet so that my training doesn't suffer too much.

I have developed a bad habit of binge eating though. I used to eat pretty healthy all the time. But since I've been competing I go through phases of cutting and binge eating (after the fight/weigh in).

[mr popular]

I've never been "ripped" before (as in, contest condition. haha), but I truly don't care to be at that low a bodyfat% until I build myself up into a massive monster years from now.

Even when I get back into martial arts regularly I plan on gaining as much muscle mass as I can well into my late 30s, to see how much muscle my body can naturally hold, and push my strength as far as it will go.

After that, I'll decide what I want to do with my body. haha

[twist]

its weird, seems like the majority of the stuff relating to training/dieting is old school common sense stuff.

Yet theres still thousands of articles written on it literally telling you the benefits of having a low fat high veggie diet, I mean as if our moms hadnt told us this for years.

Its just weird, I think the main thing for any type of program your on is just doing it and commiting to it, and be prepared to work. I dunno.

[compleks]

its weird, seems like the majority of the stuff relating to training/dieting is old school common sense stuff.

Yet theres still thousands of articles written on it literally telling you the benefits of having a low fat high veggie diet, I mean as if our moms hadnt told us this for years.

Its just weird, I think the main thing for any type of program your on is just doing it and commiting to it, and be prepared to work. I dunno.

Yep, pretty much.

[mr popular]

Simplicity will normally trump most of the overcomplicated nonsense floating around out there.

Basic weight training. Basic diet. And good old-fashioned hard work.

[Xeno]

and so begins the first day of my new dieting.

for lunch i had a can of tuna with 1/2 a tomato chopped up in it. a banana and 2 egg whites.

after my workout i drank maybe 2 cups of no fat milk :D had a good amount of protein and carbs (until i get the powders).

for dinner i had some chicken, a sweet potato, zucchini and corn.

also been drinking alot of water throughout the day.


i woke up too late for breakfast. i know :( gotta get my sleeping habits back in order.
for a workout, i did chest/triceps.

Chest:
Bench Press
2 warm up sets of 10 reps.
then i did:
1 set of 10
1 set of 10 (increased weight)
1 set of 8 (increased weight)
1 set of 4-6 (increased weight)

Inclined Dumbbell Press
1 set of 10
1 set of 8 (increased weight)
1 set of 6

Dumbbell Flyes
1 set of 10
1 set of 10 (increased weight)

Then I did some tricep presses and bench dips, but my triceps were pretty shot after the chest exercise. (tried to do 1 parallel bar dip after the chest exercises but couldn't!)

[receive]

Eat a balanced diet, consisting of protein, carbohydrates, and healthy fats.

What do you mean by "balanced"? Just that it contains those three macronutrients or does it refer to them being in some particular ratio?

- You will not lose fat while at the same time building muscle, it is physiologically impossible unless you use illegal substances.

What do you mean by "at the same time"? (For example, "during the same week as..." or "during the same day as..."


-----

Xeno - as has been mentioned briefly, don't worry too much about details of nutrition at the moment. Well, feel free to read and learn all you want - there's enough for a lifetime of study if you really want, but in terms of what you currently eat then just think about eating what you think is "healthy" (most people's idea of that isn't too far wrong) and try to eat meat/fish/eggs etc more ofton than not.
I can't condone detailed or even more-than-slightly-quantitative approaches to eating for most beginners. It rarely seems to go right, and very easily leads to what can only be termed a kind of "eating disorder", where the subject has a relationship with food that he is not at all comfortable with.
I think you said you were "small" or something - hopefully that means you're not very prone to fat gains, in which case the idea of taking this easy with dietry control is more likely to be successful.

And as for your workout report, consider using a format more like the following, for your convenience:

Exercise 1
[weight] x [reps in set 1],[reps in set 2],[reps in set 3]
[weight] x [reps in set 1]

Or if you like you could say [sets] x [reps] but I find the above format less ambiguous and doesn't require that you remind the reader (or yourself) which way round the sets/reps are written.

e.g. If you did a set of 10, then 8,then 6 reps, with 100lbs, and then a set of 3 with 130... then you could write it like this:

100 x 10,8,6
130 x 3

[compleks]

What do you mean by "balanced"? Just that it contains those three macronutrients or does it refer to them being in some particular ratio?

Really, it could mean a number of things (depending on who's reading it). For the original poster, I simply mean that he should not neglect any of the macronutrients (low fat or low carb dieting would be the main example).

[receive]

For the original poster, I simply mean that he should not neglect any of the macronutrients (low fat or low carb dieting would be the main example).

ok - and agreed.

[mr popular]

recieve, why is your training advice consistently retarded? haha

Xeno: I can already tell you're going to fall into a trap that a lot of people do that are new to this. It is good that you are trying to eat "healthy", but you are sacrificing your CALORIES for the sake of having healthier foods.

This is why it pays to make a more gradual transition, because if you go cold turkey on everything you can drop your calories by as much as 1000 or more, and you'll start losing weight and you won't be able to recover from your workouts.

People that just eat egg whites, chicken, and skim milk are people that are DIETING.
YOU do not need to be dieting right now. For your age, and the way you're training, you need to be eating plenty of calories

For example, when I am trying to gain muscle, the foods that i focus my daily diet around are meat, whole milk, eggs, and pasta.

Now what do all those foods have in common? They are all calorie dense, and they are all relatively high in protein. (and they're all DELICIOUS)

That doesn't mean vegetables and tuna and stuff don't have their place, but if they are the focus of your entire diet you are going to have a serious problem recovering and gaining any muscle.

[receive]

recieve, why is your training advice consistently retarded? haha

I checked and I definately gave no training advice here at all. Can you please quote what you were referring to?

[mr popular]

And as for your workout report, consider using a format more like the following, for your convenience:

Exercise 1
[weight] x [reps in set 1],[reps in set 2],[reps in set 3]
[weight] x [reps in set 1]

Or if you like you could say [sets] x [reps] but I find the above format less ambiguous and doesn't require that you remind the reader (or yourself) which way round the sets/reps are written.

e.g. Three sets of 10, then 8,then 6 reps, respectively, with 100lbs, and then a set of 3 with 130:

100 x 10,8,6
130 x 3

What do you even train for, recieve?

[receive]

What do you even train for, recieve?

for fun.


Can you explain what was wrong with that bit you quoted? Its a pretty reasonable format to use and an improvement on what he used.

I can only assume that you think that quote is actual advice about how he should work out? It isn't, it is advice about how he could structure his log and reports more clearly in future.

[mr popular]

No, actually, it merely reminded me of your endless posts from the past that were ridiculous. haha

What is "fun" to you? Getting bigger? Jumping higher? Cock pushups?

[receive]

> No, actually, it merely reminded me of your endless posts from the past that were ridiculous. haha

> What is "fun" to you? Getting bigger? Jumping higher? Cock pushups?

> Can you remember any specific cases of me giving retarded training advice? I'm interested to know what was so gay.

> The first two suggestions are results of training - it isn't results that I was thinking of when I sad "for fun". I just like the training - I like most of weightlifting, or any kind of not-high-rep stuff with bodyweight, sometimes running but not really, sort of almost tricking, odd-object stuff and manual labour (digging, carrying, building, breaking..)

[Xeno]

It isn't, it is advice about how he could structure his log and reports more clearly in future.

ohh, i was confused there for a sec. lol. :D and thanks
------------------------------------------------
and mr. popular, i thought tuna was high in protein. but are you saying it doesn't have enough calories? :D

and 20*170(my weight) = 3400calories thats the amount i should be looking for in general?

and thanks, hmm. i did eat alot of chicken yesterday :D

[mr popular]

Yes, that is an excellent amount of calories to shoot for every day.

Tuna and chicken are excellent sources of protein, but like I said they probably shouldn't be your main staples, simply because they aren't very calorie-dense.

As opposed to something like beef, or pork, which is also very high in protein, but also contains animals fats to bump up the calories a bit.

everybody is different, but for me personally when i eat chicken (which is every day..), i will eat it with a bunch of pasta, or rice, so i can still get in a lot of calories along with the protein i'm getting from the chicken.

conversely, i can eat 900 calories worth of steak, so when i'm having steak i'll usually just have it with a sweet potato or vegetables, or something like that.

It's all about what works for you. If you can eat 3lbs of tuna and get enough calories from it, go for it my friend. haha

[Xeno]

It's all about what works for you. If you can eat 3lbs of tuna and get enough calories from it, go for it my friend. haha

lolol, i've never been a fan of tuna, so ha! lol
i'm just wondering what i could go about eating for lunch.

i assume you eat whole wheat pasta? :D

[mr popular]

To simplify for your everyday eating habits:
let's say you want to get 3400 calories every day. Split that up over 6 meals, and that is about 550-600 calories every meal.
Let's also say you want to be getting around 250 grams of protein every day, so again split that up and it comes out to around 40-45 grams of protein with each meal.

So however you wanna do it is fine. You could eat 1 chicken breast (200 cals around 25 grams of protein) plus 2 servings of pasta (around 400cals and 10 grams of protein) and a glass of 2% milk (130cals, 9gP), and you wind up at 730 calories for the meal, with 44grams of protein. Now that's pretty good.

Or you could eat a big 10oz steak and a sweet potato and come out around the same or more.

But on average 1 serving of tuna is only 110 calories, and I don't even know how much protein, but I doubt it's more than 15 grams. So what would you eat it with to get both enough calories, and enough protein? It just isn't as cut and dry.

But if you can do it, go ahead and do it.

[mr popular]

I eat whole-GRAIN pasta, rice, cereal, and bread whenever I can.

But currently I am under the poverty line, so I eat whatever the coupon will get me, or whatever is on sale. haha

[Xeno]

ah ok. so this is gonna take a good amount of planning and counting and perhaps some charting.

and thank you for the examples, those helped :-D

and yes, coupons and sales are my best friends as well.

[mr popular]

Honestly it doesn't take all that much counting. If you have a food scale, it will save you a lot of trouble with guessing, because you can get used to certain things that you'll be consuming daily and you will be able to know what their contents are just off the top of your head. But in general... as long as you can read food labels, and make intelligent estimates, you only really need to count ABOUT how many calories you're getting in, and ABOUT how much protein

I know that for me personally, I don't even have to count calories anymore. I just count how much protein I'm getting in every day, because my diet is based around protein-rich, calorie-dense foods anyhow.

So if i can get 1.5-2x my bodyweight in grams of protein by the end of the day, i know that my calories will be fine because that right there is a pretty decent chunk of my daily calories, and the things i eat at my meals will definitely stack up to fill in the rest.

If I am ever not gaining weight, I start adding in more olive oil to my protein shakes, and eating a little more at breakfast, maybe upgrading from 2% to whole milk, and that typically resolves the issue.

This shit is not rocket science and it never has been.
Getting stronger, gaining muscle, controlling bodyfat... its all pretty basic.

[Ashtar]

Info overload is indeed damned confusing, especially with all the contradictions.

[compleks]

Ashtar is the end result of information overload.

[Ashtar]

Yes, much can be said over doing any program in place of the 'perfect' program that you never do. That being said, managed 5 chins today, woohoo.

[compleks]

You really should be ashamed of yourself.

[twist]

yummm FOOD

[receive]

Rahf:

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- You will not lose fat while at the same time building muscle, it is physiologically impossible unless you use illegal substances.

What do you mean by "at the same time"? (For example, "during the same week as..." or "during the same day as..."

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Thanks

[mr popular]

I believe he meant the obvious. Meaning your body won't build larger muscles while simultaneously reducing bodyfat levels under the same circumstances.

[receive]

I believe he meant the obvious. Meaning your body won't build larger muscles while simultaneously reducing bodyfat levels under the same circumstances.

That just replaces "at the same time" with "simulatenously", and so it remains uncertain as to what that actually means. What time scale are you talking about?

[mr popular]

Any time scale where the circumstance for a hypercaloric diet, OR a hypocaloric diet, are in effect.

....do you have downs syndrome or something?

[receive]

Any time scale where the circumstance for a hypercaloric diet, OR a hypocaloric diet, are in effect.

....do you have downs syndrome or something?

Its a reasonable question, dude. Rahf could have meant "in the same week", for example. Or "in the same day". Both of which would have been misleading to suggest.

So you mean, perhaps, that "any particular unchanging 'lifestyle' (diet, etc etc) that leads to muscle gain will not also lead to fat loss"?

(After all, for our purposes the only determination of there being either a hyper- or hypo-caloric state is observing what's happening to your bodyweight... so those terms are basically defined as that result that is supposed to demonstrate their existence in the first place...)

Is what I proposed above in italics satisfactory to you as an expression of whatever you were trying to get accross?

Unfortunately, there's another problem with that. What if the lifestyle in question involved variation over the course of a day/week/month which gave times of muscle gain and times of fat loss. Well, we might then say such a lifestyle does not qualify as "unchanging", as required in the italicised proposal. But to examine that, we again come to the problem of time-scales!! If the lifestyle was a repeating weekly unit with variation at time-scales under one week but none over that, then looking at it over a year we can say it is unchanging and constant, but looking at it over several days it wouldn't be. Even if we focus in on a single day, everyone has variation in activity and eating that renders their 24 hour lifestyle hetrogenous and not constant. Attempting to create this experimentally-ideal constant lifestyle would require something along the lines of a constant infusion of unchanging nutrients, and no variation in physical exercise.

Do you see what I mean by that?

All we can logically say is that when your lifestyle over whatever time period doesn't cause you to (gain muscle/lose fat) then it will not occur. And that's stating the obvious, but really its as far as we can go.

Similarly, what you said quoted above is just that when you EITHER have a lifestyle that [only] causes weight gain OR one that [only] causes weight loss, only one of them will occur. Which again is stating the obvious and no real use...

[Rahf]

Rahf:

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What do you mean by "at the same time"? (For example, "during the same week as..." or "during the same day as..."

---

Thanks

That just replaces "at the same time" with "simulatenously", and so it remains uncertain as to what that actually means. What time scale are you talking about?

I need to stop thinking that people always know what I'm talking about, cheers for reminding me.

What I mean is that you will put on bodyfat while maintaining a hypercaloric diet, which is essential if you want to build muscle mass. The time span in this case doesn't matter since a positive energy balance over a day or a month still yields a portion of fat. This is affected by your positive energy levels as in more energy than the body essentially needs. Fat will be increased and muscle will be increased, there is no legal way around it.

[mr popular]

Going slightly off topic, winter time is almost here, and I'm excited to stuff my face and grow pounds and pounds of mass underneath layers of warm clothing.

[receive]

What I mean is that you will put on bodyfat while maintaining a hypercaloric diet, which is essential if you want to build muscle mass. The time span in this case doesn't matter since a positive energy balance over a day or a month still yields a portion of fat. This is affected by your positive energy levels as in more energy than the body essentially needs. Fat will be increased and muscle will be increased, there is no legal way around it.

Thanks. I'm just trying to work out what you're saying, and what phrasing of the apparently the same thing make sense and which don't. (skip to the final paragraph if you want.)

What about the following situation, using a monthly energy balance, as you mentioned:

1. This person's point of 'energy balance' is 3000 calories and we'll have to assume it is unchanging and he has no variation in exercise levels.

2. In the first two weeks the person eats a sufficiently small amount to be in an energy deficit which corresponds to a loss on his part of 3lbs of fat (so at least ~10,500 calories altogether, which is -750 cals/day). Let's assume negligable loss of muscle, which is reasonable.

3. In the second two weeks the person eats an amount sufficiently in excess of 3000 calories to put some weight back on. Let's say this amounts to 14,000 calories, or +1000 calories per day. Now, the maximum amount of fat that this could possibly equate to is ~4lbs. Is it conceivable that over those 14 days an amount of that energy goes towards new muscle tissue, glycogen, and all kinds of other non-adipose destinations, that is in excess of 3500 calories, and therefore making the maximum possible fat gain less than 3lbs?

Then the total montly energy balance is +3500 and there has been a monthly net fat loss.

A similar story could end up with a montly negative calorie balance and net muscle gain.

The final (long) sentence in part 3 is the big assumption, and I guess its nothing that we can say either way, but it seems quite possible to me.

Actually, I don't know why I wrote all that really because obviously you aren't saying that you will always end up with more bodyfat if your weekly, monthly,yearly, life-time energy balance is positive. Because of course, per calorie in + or - of your 'energy balance', more fat is lost when in deficit than in excess (because hopefully a proportion of that energy is being partitioned towards building muscle). So its clearly not very accurate to say both aims can't be acheived in "the same time (period)", because we see people always doing both, usually in multi-week periods of each, and then coming out with an overall fat loss and muscle gain.

As advice to a noob to not atempt or expect to acheive both within the same weeks/months period, I'd agree with it.

[Rahf]

A month is a very short time to calculate something. I'll post a short example of my own, hope it is intelligible.

Pete (man man man?) has a daily need of 3500 calories and is an active lad with 3 days of weight lifting every week. During 3 weeks, Pete consumes enough calories to strike a 4000kcal total intake every day. This would roughly result in 1lbs of bodyweight gained each week. He keeps doing this for 4 months and gains a total of 16lbs. If he's done well with his training and at the same time being a guy with decent genetics he should have gained something like 40/60 muscle/fat. That's 6,4lbs of lean mass. Remember that lean mass does not mean ALL muscle.

Pete has gained ~10lbs of fat in this time and decides to shed it off. It takes him roughly 2,5 months to get it all off since he's not in a rush. During this time he has most likely lost some muscle as well. Pete is all done with his bulk and cut and starts up on a new bulk. Here's where it gets tricky and instead of writing it in I'll quote Lyle McDonald on this:

The bottom line is that, in dieted down individuals, the body is primed to gain body fat at the expense of LBM to replenish what was lost during the diet.

Reductions in metabolic rate, fat oxidation and thermogenesis all contributed to a preferential gain of body fat and these systems didn’t reset themselves until all of the body fat lost had been regained.

This is one of the reasons why doing short leaps of bulk/cut aren't so successful.

Doing those leaps and bounds are possible but not effective and certainly not easy on the mind and body.

Source for quotes: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/Miscarticles/bodyfat.html

[receive]

Hmm, I'm not sure I see how most of that is relevant to what I was trying to talk about which was your idea of energy balance and the inevitability of net fat gain when a certain time period (a month, you suggested) had a positive energy balance.

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Anyway, I read Lyle's article and agree with the observations of differences between "naturally lean" people and the rest of us. Also about not going straight from a period of cutting to one of gaining.

When you say "short" periods of cutting/gaining are shit, what do you mean? What kind of a time is "short"?
And it would seem that in fact *short* (days to weeks) periods of them would be rather good in that the undesirable metabolic/hormonal states that come to be from long-term cutting would be avoided. It seems to be the experience of many non-naturally-lean people that a long slow cut in the end just leaves them able to eat a much lesser amount of food (without gaining fat back) than before. Hopefully that can be repaired by carefully increasing their food intake again, I guess.
But going a few days with a really big calorie deficit, and then back to normal, sees a big drop in fat and no persisting shit effects once one gets back to more food.

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Rahf, what has been your approch to gaining muss over the last.. 8 months?

[mr popular]

When did you say your next update was going to be, Rahf?

[Rahf]

Hmm, I'm not sure I see how most of that is relevant to what I was trying to talk about which was your idea of energy balance and the inevitability of net fat gain when a certain time period (a month, you suggested) had a positive energy balance.

------

Anyway, I read Lyle's article and agree with the observations of differences between "naturally lean" people and the rest of us. Also about not going straight from a period of cutting to one of gaining.

When you say "short" periods of cutting/gaining are shit, what do you mean? What kind of a time is "short"?
And it would seem that in fact *short* (days to weeks) periods of them would be rather good in that the undesirable metabolic/hormonal states that come to be from long-term cutting would be avoided. It seems to be the experience of many non-naturally-lean people that a long slow cut in the end just leaves them able to eat a much lesser amount of food (without gaining fat back) than before. Hopefully that can be repaired by carefully increasing their food intake again, I guess.
But going a few days with a really big calorie deficit, and then back to normal, sees a big drop in fat and no persisting shit effects once one gets back to more food.

---

Rahf, what has been your approch to gaining muss over the last.. 8 months?

I reckon a "short" time in this case would be anything below 3 months. Going a few days with a really big calorie deficit will net you a loss in water weight, performance, fat weight and not to mention a good deal of muscle. Since carbs are essential for performing well during resistance training, you'll be doing worse and worse. Then during your short bulk period, you'll be spending time re-establishing your old strength and muscle levels.

Speaking around with some powerlifting veterans also yields the theory of "riding the muscles in". This means that if you achieve a certain strength level, you'll have to maintain that for a month or two in order to secure that you're not going to instantly drop a few pounds in exercises just because you've restricted some carbs. Loss of strength = loss of muscle.

The base metabolic rate (BMR) is turned down during a calorie deficit and it will be affected on a bigger scale the bigger the deficit is and the longer the cut is. It does however reset to normal base metabolical rates once you start eating normally again.

If one wants to minimize the fat gained I reckon they should aim at gaining no more than 1kg every month. That should keep fat levels on a healthy scale.

Since this has been my first bulk during my entire life (not excluding my "life-long-bulk" in earlier years) I probably haven't been as steady as I should have been. It's been a pretty steady bulk during 11 months with a slight setback in summer due to overload of work and other commitments. The bulk continues until January/February. I personally reckon it has worked pretty well, sure I've gained quite an amount of fat but that was expected since the more fat you gain, the more fat you are prone to gaining. Considering I also used to be a fatty fat a couple of years ago just adds to that.

Brian: Come summer.

[receive]

Going a few days with a really big calorie deficit will net you a loss in water weight, performance, fat weight and not to mention a good deal of muscle. Since carbs are essential for performing well during resistance training, you'll be doing worse and worse. Then during your short bulk period, you'll be spending time re-establishing your old strength and muscle levels.

From at least my own experience, and general other shit, I'd have to completely disagree - I never experience muscle or strength losses when doing very sharply waved/cycled diets. Perhaps that's because I don't have an unnatural amount of muscle to lose, or (and this is likely important) perhaps because I do not eat a constantly high-carb diet, when I drop calories sharply I lose bodyfat very readily, and as such don't 'rely on' carbs (including protein --> carbs) for fuel under such circumstances.

There's four interesting studies on this thread, and a discussion of them:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25307&hl=fast

I reckon the fear of muscle loss is greatly overblown, especially with fasting, big calorie deficits, or low meal frequency.

[Rahf]

From at least my own experience, and general other shit, I'd have to completely disagree - I never experience muscle or strength losses when doing very sharply waved/cycled diets. Perhaps that's because I don't have an unnatural amount of muscle to lose, or (and this is likely important) perhaps because I do not eat a constantly high-carb diet, when I drop calories sharply I lose bodyfat very readily, and as such don't 'rely on' carbs (including protein --> carbs) for fuel under such circumstances.

There's four interesting studies on this thread, and a discussion of them:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25307&hl=fast

I reckon the fear of muscle loss is greatly overblown, especially with fasting, big calorie deficits, or low meal frequency.

How would the fear of muscle loss be overblown? Apart from the kids who are dedicating hours upon hours a day to be as optimal as possible.

I reckon when you are on a cut, it is important to actually be weary of what you eat, how you train etc since you don't have as much energy to get by. The burnt off fat is used to fill your daily needs but your body still needs carbs for the purpose carbs fill. Filling your muscle glycogen levels and also staying focused require at least a fair amount of carbs. Studies have also shown that high-carb diets produce better performance results than low-carb dito.

The lower your bodyfat gets, the more muscle is going to get metabolized.

[Dingo]

Vey productive thread, people. Nice job. :tongue: one in a million. Good luck Xeno. And don't worry about the information overload, I got it all down in few months of analysis. Cost me time, but better prepared than not. Just rember the basics, and don't go too deep in analysis, because scientists, in cetain topics like macronutrients, which are all necessarily all needed, they go more indepth and farther on things, which you don't need. Focus on the bigger picture and have fun.

[receive]

How would the fear of muscle loss be overblown?

You see always people talking about the mystical "starvation mode" saying that if you don't eat every 2 hours you'll start burning muscle and cease fat burning, etc. There are some really bizzare versions of the process. Less extreme, people are needlessly worried about going, for example, a day without eating, thinking they'll lose loads of muscle and be weak and shit. Its supposed to be some "survival mechanism" but as far as I can see the way its popularly described would actually kill you pretty quickly. And anyway I've never seen anyone who tried it actually report the bad effects.

Anyway, its only really on totally spasticated forums like this
(http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=269) kind of place, you know. Oh, and BB.com of course.


I reckon when you are on a cut, it is important to actually be weary of what you eat, how you train etc since you don't have as much energy to get by. The burnt off fat is used to fill your daily needs but your body still needs carbs for the purpose carbs fill. Filling your muscle glycogen levels and also staying focused require at least a fair amount of carbs. Studies have also shown that high-carb diets produce better performance results than low-carb dito.

The lower your bodyfat gets, the more muscle is going to get metabolized.

I have no real disagreements with that. ^
If I'm doing some heavy caloric cycling then it includes usually plenty of carbs during "high" days. Anything more than a few 100g twice a week or so doesn't seem to give me any more benefit, though.

[Rahf]

You see always people talking about the mystical "starvation mode" saying that if you don't eat every 2 hours you'll start burning muscle and cease fat burning, etc. There are some really bizzare versions of the process. Less extreme, people are needlessly worried about going, for example, a day without eating, thinking they'll lose loads of muscle and be weak and shit. Its supposed to be some "survival mechanism" but as far as I can see the way its popularly described would actually kill you pretty quickly. And anyway I've never seen anyone who tried it actually report the bad effects.

Anyway, its only really on totally spasticated forums like this
(http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=269) kind of place, you know. Oh, and BB.com of course.


I have no real disagreements with that. ^
If I'm doing some heavy caloric cycling then it includes usually plenty of carbs during "high" days. Anything more than a few 100g twice a week or so doesn't seem to give me any more benefit, though.

The muscle metabolism myth is greatly exaggerated. If we look at it from a 24-hour perspective and break it down to 3 meals during waking hours. These 3 meals reach the desired level which is energy balance. First meal is ingested at 7am, second meal at 1pm and last meal at 7pm. Given that enough protein is consumed it will provide the body with enough amino acids to sustain the given amount of body mass. After you've had your meal the protein metabolism will be lower than protein synthesis. This flux is constant.

The protein synthesis and protein metabolism are constant activities, you don't kickstart one of them because you eat 70g of protein or starve for 7 hours. One or the other is going to be higher at given points during the day but in the end they will be on an even level if the energy intake and balance of macronutrients is right.

Take weight lifting as an example:

Immediately after training the body will be in a negative protein balance (essentially, the body is breaking down more protein than it builds up). In the hours that follow, the protein synthesis will be heightened above base levels meaning the body is taking in more muscle protein than normal. This effect lasts for as long as 48 hours until it reaches baseline again.

The irony of all this is our posts vs the thread title.

[receive]

The muscle metabolism myth is greatly exaggerated. If we look at it from a 24-hour perspective and break it down to 3 meals during waking hours. These 3 meals reach the desired level which is energy balance. First meal is ingested at 7am, second meal at 1pm and last meal at 7pm. Given that enough protein is consumed it will provide the body with enough amino acids to sustain the given amount of body mass. After you've had your meal the protein metabolism will be lower than protein synthesis. This flux is constant.

The protein synthesis and protein metabolism are constant activities, you don't kickstart one of them because you eat 70g of protein or starve for 7 hours. One or the other is going to be higher at given points during the day but in the end they will be on an even level if the energy intake and balance of macronutrients is right.

Take weight lifting as an example:

Immediately after training the body will be in a negative protein balance (essentially, the body is breaking down more protein than it builds up). In the hours that follow, the protein synthesis will be heightened above base levels meaning the body is taking in more muscle protein than normal. This effect lasts for as long as 48 hours until it reaches baseline again.


If that's meant to contradict/corect something I've said, then I have no idea what you've interpreted me as saying.
If its just general talk about stuff then fine, that's valid.

[Rahf]

If that's meant to contradict/corect something I've said, then I have no idea what you've interpreted me as saying.
If its just general talk about stuff then fine, that's valid.

Was commenting on the myth about "starvation-mode".