Kurz versus Tsatsouline

[Ashtar]

I saw this in the latest Stadion newsletter...
in the side raise, the position of the upper body is quite
different from an actual roundhouse and/or side kick (meaning no
back-lean, not in one line with the legs), could you please explain
why this method is superior to other dynamic side raises that mimic
the real kicking positions where one leans back and the whole body
is in one line (for example pavel tsatsouline teaches it that way)?

About the way Pavel Tsatsuline's stretching and flexibility
training: I will begin paying attention to what he teaches when he
shows at least the flexibility and strength that my customers show.
So far, you show more strength at the greater stretch
http://www.stadion.com/gif/oliver_klettner.jpg
than he does--so why do you care?

Best regards,
_________________
Thomas Kurz
Holy shit! There's gonna be a WAR.

[ChenZhen]

haha, that's me last year when i was training wushu in china.
actually, i have to say both kurz' and pavel's systems are more or less the same, the difference is only small details, like kurz uses the isometric horse stance for the side split while pavel says it's not optimal because in that position you can't "push the walls apart". what i still don't understand is the upper body position in kurz' dynamic side raise because it's completely differrent from a real side or roundhouse kick (i guess it could teach bad habits for the real kicks). i know in his answer kurz wrote that his way is easier on the hips and knees but pavel also teaches to tilt the pelivis forward...
but now that i've seen kurz' new dvd, his system definitely works and his kicks are awesome!

btw, if you guys are interseted you can visit my flickr page and klick on the "wushu training in zhengzhou" set on the right side of the page, i've got many pictures of the training and life there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wushu
best wishes

[Ashtar]

So, Oliver Klettner, how did you discover this reference to you so quickly? Traffic sourcing? It is an impressive stretch that I can't do! I'd like to learn from both their systems, they both seem like good companies. I just get entertained by the rivalries between systems :) CST sort of has it too, respecting kettlebells but saying their clubs are better. They have one with Furey's Royal Court as well, heh.

[ChenZhen]

?
i discovered it so quickly because i read the tt forums almost every day and i really don't see your point in posting my real name here on the forum...

[short gorilla]

?
i discovered it so quickly because i read the tt forums almost every day and i really don't see your point in posting my real name here on the forum...

Trying to call out a potential poser.

[tuareg]

bO8G5zsQohg
Thomas Kurz can fuck you up with his umbrella son.

[TKD_Andy]

they're both incredibly outdated.

[Papa Lazarou]

You mean the methods Andy?

Please explain.

[ChenZhen]

actually, it's not that hard to prove that it's really me, if you can wait, i'll get my camera on sunday and upload some new pictures...
and btw, i know these forums are full of "posers" (and that's the reason i never made an account here before) but that doesn't mean every new person here is one...
moreover if you follow kurz' or tsatsouline's pogram then it shouldn't be too hard to achieve the splits

[Ashtar]

I posted the name because I just noticed in putting up the image that the name was in the file, Kurz should have renamed it "my student who is stronger than Pavel Tsatsouline" or something. I would see no need to doubt your truthfulness unless another guy showed up claiming to be the pic guy.

[TKD_Andy]

You mean the methods Andy?

Please explain.

all the studies used by both of these guys were done yeeears ago, before people had the understanding of physiology we do today. Unfortunately, compared to more modern studies, its like using a childrens story book when writing a masters degree paper.

[ChenZhen]

I posted the name because I just noticed in putting up the image that the name was in the file, Kurz should have renamed it "my student who is stronger than Pavel Tsatsouline" or something. I would see no need to doubt your truthfulness unless another guy showed up claiming to be the pic guy.

i'm neither pavel's nor kurz' student, i'm just using their products & i would never say i'm stronger than one of them...

@tkd andy: could you please elaborate why you think their methods are outdated, IMO isometrics are still the fastest and safest way to get flexible?

[Papa Lazarou]

Well Andy's right in saying that the studies referenced are old. But it doesn't follow directly that this means that the methods are based on faulty information - old research isn't automatically useless.

The other point is about effectiveness. Kurz's method could be effective regardless of its basis.

So Andy, could you maybe give an example or two of studies whose conclusions have been undermined by more recent stuff? I'm not trying to defend Kurz, I'd actually like to know if there are better methods of flexibility training, since I'm using his method at the moment.

[Kitosho]

Tsatsouline (rightfully) has a higher focus on pure strength, which is nice in comparison to Kurz's flexibility plus generic bodybuilding stuff. But Kurz has less of the douchebag guru aura. I vote Kurz.

[Graber]

Hey man i remember i searched on odc for some stretching videos and i found something about Pavel Tsatsouline and i thought who is this guy? never heard of him, but u ppl tell in here... anyway i think Tom Kurz Secrets of Stretching is a shit I have it and i watched it.
Man what method i sow in Tom kurz movies is a old shit and he doenst show u stretching exercies how i wont, i dont know, if i was personaly folowing his method i was uneable to split right now, and anyway i cannot agree to follow other's ppl stretching routine.

[Papa Lazarou]

Many people (including Juji I think) have achieved the splits in three months or less with Kurz's method, graber. From my guesses, I think your methods are far more time-consuming than Kurz's. Long periods of stretching have other drawbacks too, depending on your aims.

[windowmaker]

Many people (including Juji I think) have achieved the splits in three months or less with Kurz's method, graber. From my guesses, I think your methods are far more time-consuming than Kurz's. Long periods of stretching have other drawbacks too, depending on your aims.

I haven't read or watched anything by Kurz about his method but I've read things by other people about Kurz's methods. I just do PNF stretches every now and then.

I don't have cold splits yet because I stopped stretching for a while and I've only started doing PNF stretches like 2-4 times weekly again, but when I first started doing PNF stretches I got warm splits in like a month.

[Graber]

Hmm well when u say achieved splits in 3 months or less what splits front or side? anyway i think my methods are more time-consuming but i wished to increase my flexibility and i added more stretches depening what i wanted to get and i also increased the intensity of my stretching exercies in time.
Man anyway with this isometric method spread your legs and push with your ankles the ground while you are supporting yourself with your hands i had more progess then my old one, but being able to tense while i was in lower poztion the i was tensing normal kind of affected my adductors or joint, hmm sometimes when i do i feel more pain maybe i will need to decress intensity for a while.

Man and about my side split in the end of my isometrics i actualy try a side split and hold it 1 min and my legs are splited good i can say and i am even able to tense like that or pust my akile or a part from my leg down with then hand but my cold side split is shit WHY?
I am stretching once at 2 days for side split lets say at 20 pm and if i try next day at lets say 15-16 pm will be shit hmmm.

[frozenpeon]

You need strength in your adductors to increase your cold flexibility. You should be able to slide your feet to get out of the split. If you can't, it means you are not strong enaugh.

[Papa Lazarou]

Do you do dynamic stretches graber? They also help cold flexibility I think.

[windowmaker]

You need strength in your adductors to increase your cold flexibility. You should be able to slide your feet to get out of the split. If you can't, it means you are not strong enaugh.

That's something else that I heard from Kurz.

Simply put, if you can slide your legs to standing position from splits without using your hands then your legs are strong and flexible enough to do cold splits.

[TKD_Andy]

You need strength in your adductors to increase your cold flexibility. You should be able to slide your feet to get out of the split. If you can't, it means you are not strong enaugh.

this is a typical kurz shitpile of an explanation.

"how du i getz splitz?"
"work ur adductorz lol"

its far, far more than that.

[Papa Lazarou]

For the love of god explain, Andy!!! Kurz at least does that (in his book I mean).

[windowmaker]

this is a typical kurz shitpile of an explanation.

"how du i getz splitz?"
"work ur adductorz lol"

its far, far more than that.

The answer is right, the question is wrong.

This thread has got me more interested in Kurz, I've started reading his crap.
His "simple" answers are usually aimed towards people who've already got good flexibility, the question was probably something more like "how do I maintain the splits?" or "what do I do for the last few inches of my splits?".

He does go in to a lot of depth because it's needed. Which emphasizes how simple it really is when he gives a simple answer.

In one of his videos on how to maintain splits he pretty much says "do this for a minute, three times a week" and he does the splits. Because that's pretty much to it if you want to "maintain" (rather than gain) flexibility.

[TKD_Andy]

The answer is right, the question is wrong.



oh dear god.

[Zyndrof]

For the love of god explain, Andy!!! Kurz at least does that (in his book I mean).

Second that. Why is he outdated and what is new about today's stretching?

[simba_25]

Backing andy up here...

Before you all start shouting at me for saying this, i am in no way denying that kurzs methods of getting splits don't work, evidently they do, its his explanation of why that is complete crap.

Strength in the adductors is not really an issue, you need flexabiltiy in them so that you can actually do splits, its strength in the muscles surronding your hips, the abductors that need the strength so that you don't pop your hip out. A muscle doesn't have to be strong to be flexible. Strength and flexability are two very different things.

[TKD_Andy]

thanks gemma. I just dont have the patience to explain this, because i know in a weeks time there will be another thread just like it, with people asking for help on how to do splits, someone will reply having scanned the back few pages of a kurz book saying "yeah just strengthen your adductors and you'll be fine"

People just need to do alot more varied research, otherwise we'll get 900 members who follow the theory that if you stand on one leg for an hour a day you'll be able to do box splits within a month.

[Graber]

People just need to do alot more varied research, otherwise we'll get 900 members who follow the theory that if you stand on one leg for an hour a day you'll be able to do box splits within a month.

Stay in one leg for an hour a day? IS that tested? I think is a stupid bullshit and anyway i dont see that guy who will stay on hour in one leg a day is crazy lol.

In one of his videos on how to maintain splits he pretty much says "do this for a minute, three times a week" and he does the splits. Because that's pretty much to it if you want to "maintain" (rather than gain) flexibility.

Hmm i know that video (maybe everybody who stretch knows that): "Hi i'm Tom Kurz and i will show u how to mantain a split side and front split...now this is how u mantain your side split...u can do it 2 or 3 times a week and thats enought to mantain your side split the same goes for the front split...it can be this way or this way...if it takes u more to mantain a split than it means that the method...methods of training that u use are inefective" :D. Simply do a Side Split once u have good cold side split 3 times a week and thats enought? Dont u think thas a lie? Is just to good to be true, i think is a lie ment to fool some ppl or to say once u get good cold side split everythink is easy.

And if u can do cold splits u will know man simply try a split when u are cold if u do it all the way down good thats it haha.

[frozenpeon]

Stay in one leg for an hour a day? IS that tested? I think is a stupid bullshit and anyway i dont see that guy who will stay on hour in one leg a day is crazy lol.

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Simply do a Side Split once u have good cold side split 3 times a week and thats enought? Dont u think thas a lie? Is just to good to be true, i think is a lie ment to fool some ppl or to say once u get good cold side split everythink is easy.


Yes, it is enaugh to MAINTAIN it.


And if u can do cold splits u will know man simply try a split when u are cold if u do it all the way down good thats it haha.
Thanks I didn't know that.

[Papa shades]

Andy, have you actually read stretching scientifically before? To say Kurz's advice boils down to "work ur adductorz lol" is a gross misinterpretation. It's fair to say that all of his methodology is backed up by research, whereas you are just making base claims without even explaining why Kurz is wrong. I know you say you "dont have the patience to explain this, because i know in a weeks time there will be another thread just like it", but until you have the patience to explain you can't expect people to believe Kurz is wrong.

[Papa Lazarou]

Andy and simba_25,

Kurz explains the adductor strengthening thingy like this:

In a side split stretch, your body weight is acting to lengthen your adductors. As a reflex, your adductors contract to prevent over-lengthening and tearing. Compared to a weak muscle, a strong muscle contracts less to exert the same force (i.e., support the same weight). It's easier to stretch a relaxed muscle - there's less opposition to the stretch. Therefore, a strong muscle will be easier to stretch than a weak muscle in many stretch positions, including the side split position.

I think that's pretty much what Kurz says in his book. It strikes me as logical. Andy, if you know things that make the above invalid, PLEASE TELL ME!!!! I really would like to know if Kurz's is a crank, since I'm using his methods.

[Graber]

I've understood that simba_25 is a girl, i would like to see how she looks, how she splits hehe.

[Nick B]

god you're fucking annoying andy hahah. every single thread i see you post in you do the same stupid shit. you say someone is wrong or stupid, then get this big ego thing going, and come up with some bullshit excuse for why you wont explain your reasoning. same thing with that whole the chamber is a strike thread you made a while ago.

you'd probably make a great politician.

[windowmaker]

In a side split stretch, your body weight is acting to lengthen your adductors. As a reflex, your adductors contract to prevent over-lengthening and tearing. Compared to a weak muscle, a strong muscle contracts less to exert the same force (i.e., support the same weight). It's easier to stretch a relaxed muscle - there's less opposition to the stretch. Therefore, a strong muscle will be easier to stretch than a weak muscle in many stretch positions, including the side split position.


That's an extremely good explanation, is that a quote from Kurz or Stretching Scientifically or did you just put that into your own words?

[short gorilla]

RHETORICAL POST ON TOM KURZ AND SIDE SPLITS! ADDUCTOR'S! STRETCHING! LOUD NOISES!

[TKD_Andy]

god you're fucking annoying andy hahah. every single thread i see you post in you do the same stupid shit. you say someone is wrong or stupid, then get this big ego thing going, and come up with some bullshit excuse for why you wont explain your reasoning. same thing with that whole the chamber is a strike thread you made a while ago.

you'd probably make a great politician.

haha you have no idea what you're talking about.

Everytime you come into a thread you always post some bullshit off topic hating post, exactly like that. You have nothing valuable to add to the thread, or the forum, so you dont really have a reason to be here.

it doesnt suprise me that you dont understand the chambering thread i made, so then suprise suprise you just start hating becuase you cant comprehend what im talking about. Shame that, you might have found it interesting.

Kurz and Pavel both have their uses, however both of them use studies that are far far out of date, and what alot of people dont realise is that when you're making a book based on case studies, they need to be as up to date as possible. They both also greatly overlook alot of stretching techniques that can yeild very fast results with minimal effort.

Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.

[windowmaker]

it doesnt suprise me that you dont understand the chambering thread i made, so then suprise suprise you just start hating becuase you cant comprehend what im talking about. Shame that, you might have found it interesting.

Kurz and Pavel both have their uses, however both of them use studies that are far far out of date
Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.

WELL ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE ANY EXAMPLES OR JUST KEEP ON MAKING BASELESS STATEMENTS?

"o ye diz 1 tiem kurz tld me 2 raep mi mum 2 maek miself mor flexibl but it didnt work datz so outd8ed"

[Papa Lazarou]

when you're making a book based on case studies, they need to be as up to date as possible.

Not necessarily. Suppose I do a study on the effects of isometric stretching (I don't know if this exists - just making a point) - I run the study and find that participants who used isometric stretching attain splits in half the time that participants who use only relaxed stretching take. Pretty bad hypothetical but hopefully you see my point. As long as your claims don't reach too far, you can reasonably base a method of training on old studies. Note that I say "old" not "out-dated", since I don't know of any studies used in Kurz's book have had their conclusions undermined by more recent research.

If you know of anything that undermines Kurz's method or any of his claims, PLEASE TELL ME. I'D REALLY LIKE TO KNOW.

Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.

I'd like to know these too (like I said, I use his method).

I'm not going to just trust you and I don't think you would in my shoes. So far I can't see any evidence you've given of the flaws in Kurz's method (though I'm sure there are some).

Maybe you could suggest an alternate method or something?

They both also greatly overlook alot of stretching techniques that can yeild very fast results with minimal effort.

I find this especially interesting. Could you tell me where to find this stuff out at least?


Hmm, just saw widowmaker's post. And I thought I was being blunt =/

[simba_25]

Andy and simba_25,

Kurz explains the adductor strengthening thingy like this:

In a side split stretch, your body weight is acting to lengthen your adductors. As a reflex, your adductors contract to prevent over-lengthening and tearing. Compared to a weak muscle, a strong muscle contracts less to exert the same force (i.e., support the same weight). It's easier to stretch a relaxed muscle - there's less opposition to the stretch. Therefore, a strong muscle will be easier to stretch than a weak muscle in many stretch positions, including the side split position.

Ahh I see you have bought out the stretch reflex bit. The thing is the adductors only contract when you get to EXTREMES of a stretch to prevent over lengthening and tearing, stretching causes microtears anyway so Kurzs expanation would suggest that the adductors contract through the whole movement which they don't. A muscle can contract while it is lengthening (eccentric contraction) but only if the agonist muscle is concentrically contracting (i.e. getting shorter). Also, the theroy of muscle contraction is constantly changing. I don't have Kurzs book to hand so I can't write about what he has and hasn't said concerning muscle contraction, but there are other books like Exercise Physiology by McArdle, Katch and Katch that explain muscle contraction and the stretch flex quite well.

Biomechanically Kurz is right, it does take less contraction from a strong muscle to generate the same amount of force as a weak one, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger muscle is easier to stretch. A childs muscles aren't that strong but yet they are incredibly easy to stretch. Granted this is partly due to the fact that their muscles can be longer than their bones in some cases, but they're muscles are still not strong enough to contract against the force of a stretch.

And Graber, yes I am a girl, no your not going to see what i look like and i split way better than you.

[PaulG]

And Graber, yes I am a girl, no your not going to see what i look like and i split way better than you.


OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


GRABER, SHE DISSED YOU, INSULT HER !!!
PUSSY CUNT PISS AYOYOYOYOYYYYYYYYYY Her !

[ChenZhen]

so, tkdandy, could you please enlighten us instead of just saying how outdated kurz' & pavel's methods are? i'd be intersted in a system that is even more effective than isometrics...

[shengoikee]

this is something i absolutely refuse to argue over haha

but regardless, if you really want to have something reliable to contribute you have to look at recent studies (2 years or younger)

just find the most recent systematic review

[Graber]

And Graber, yes I am a girl, no your not going to see what i look like and i split way better than you.

Hmm i think u are ugly and u do split better your legs bitch, u know the drill ahahhahahaa CUNTTTTT.

[simba_25]

Graber your so funny...

[short gorilla]

Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.

For instance?

The rest of what you said is absolutely right though. That's like going to an 85 year old doctor that hasn't been to a conference or picked up a journal in 30 years.

[Papa Lazarou]

simba_25:

I'll say at the beginning that I don't have much knowledge about this sort of thing, so I'm mostly guessing. It seems like you're more qualified than me, but there's a few things I don't get.

The thing is the adductors only contract when you get to EXTREMES of a stretch to prevent over lengthening and tearing, stretching causes microtears anyway so Kurzs expanation would suggest that the adductors contract through the whole movement which they don't.

Really? I understood it like this (I might be way off):

- A muscle always has some level of tone

- This level increases by reflex once the muscle lengthens beyond some threshold

- For adductors, this threshold would be relatively low since, if the muscles relaxed quickly in a side split position, you'd tear them severely.

- Strength is reduced at high ranges of motion so this reflex would need to kick in before your body weight became too much to hold in a side split position.

So if the above is right (or at least close), I assume that a stronger muscle will be more relaxed than a weak one in a side split stretch, since the weak muscle is contracting more.


A muscle can contract while it is lengthening (eccentric contraction) but only if the agonist muscle is concentrically contracting (i.e. getting shorter).

This seems counter-intuitive to me. For example, if I'm lowing a plate onto a table by eccentrically contracting my biceps, are my triceps concentrically contracting? My triceps may be shortening, but they should also be relaxed shouldn't they?

I don't think there needs to be contraction on both sides of a movement. Of course if I abduct my leg while standing, my abductors have to shorten and my adductors have to lengthen, but as far as I know only my abductors need to contract. In fact, doesn't contracting a muscle cause it's antagonist to relax?

I guess the main question here is: What effect does relaxation have on the ease of stretching a muscle?

I assume a relaxed muscle is easier to stretch, but I don't really know why. I guess it's just because it's easier to lengthen a muscle (get it to a range of motion at which you will be increasing it's flexibility) when it isn't resisting (when active tension is low).

So the argument goes like this:

The more relaxed a muscle is, the easier it is to stretch.
A strong muscle is more relaxed than a weak muscle at a high range of motion.
Therefore, a strong muscle is easier to stretch than a weak muscle.

So basically, at least one of the first two points there must be wrong if the conclusion is wrong.

The upshot being that, at a high range of motion, a very weak muscle (like the adductors, which can't usually support full body weight) may be nearly impossible to stretch effectively because it wants to contract so strongly.

Horribly long post and a bit convoluted, but that's how I understand it.

[simba_25]

simba_25:

I'll say at the beginning that I don't have much knowledge about this sort of thing, so I'm mostly guessing. It seems like you're more qualified than me, but there's a few things I don't get.



Really? I understood it like this (I might be way off):

- A muscle always has some level of tone

- This level increases by reflex once the muscle lengthens beyond some threshold

- For adductors, this threshold would be relatively low since, if the muscles relaxed quickly in a side split position, you'd tear them severely.

- Strength is reduced at high ranges of motion so this reflex would need to kick in before your body weight became too much to hold in a side split position.

So if the above is right (or at least close), I assume that a stronger muscle will be more relaxed than a weak one in a side split stretch, since the weak muscle is contracting more.




This seems counter-intuitive to me. For example, if I'm lowing a plate onto a table by eccentrically contracting my biceps, are my triceps concentrically contracting? My triceps may be shortening, but they should also be relaxed shouldn't they?

I don't think there needs to be contraction on both sides of a movement. Of course if I abduct my leg while standing, my abductors have to shorten and my adductors have to lengthen, but as far as I know only my abductors need to contract. In fact, doesn't contracting a muscle cause it's antagonist to relax?

I guess the main question here is: What effect does relaxation have on the ease of stretching a muscle?

I assume a relaxed muscle is easier to stretch, but I don't really know why. I guess it's just because it's easier to lengthen a muscle (get it to a range of motion at which you will be increasing it's flexibility) when it isn't resisting (when active tension is low).

So the argument goes like this:

The more relaxed a muscle is, the easier it is to stretch.
A strong muscle is more relaxed than a weak muscle at a high range of motion.
Therefore, a strong muscle is easier to stretch than a weak muscle.

So basically, at least one of the first two points there must be wrong if the conclusion is wrong.

The upshot being that, at a high range of motion, a very weak muscle (like the adductors, which can't usually support full body weight) may be nearly impossible to stretch effectively because it wants to contract so strongly.

Horribly long post and a bit convoluted, but that's how I understand it.

Sorry haven't mastered multiquoting yet...

There is a threshold level where the stretch reflex kicks in, but the threshold is very high for every muscles. How easily a muscle can be torn depends on the motion it is torn in, the speed of the trauma and the position on the muscle during the trauma. Sitting in box splits and going into splits is not going to cause server tearing in the adductors, unless some fattie comes and jumps on you when your quite far off the floor. Please remember though that it is not only the adductors that are at work during splits, core muscles help to keep you stable and if you are far from the ground, the muscles in your lower legs are supporting your body weight. The adductors never purely have your full body weight on them.

There are different types of contraction that work synergistically to prevent injury. Muscles generally work in pairs where you have the agonist muscle (the one doing the movment) and the antagonist (the muscle helping to control the movement). In a press up, your triceps are contracting concentrically because they are the muscle carrying out the movement (agonist). Your biceps contract eccentrically, so get longer to prevent you from taking a nose dive to the floor at speed. If you didn't have the eccentric contraction of the biceps, the strength of your triceps (and gravity) would pull you straight to the floor. Same with a bicep curl, if the tricep didn't eccentrically contract, you'd pop your elbow out because your bicep would contract quickly pull the weight at speed upwards. I know its does seem hard to grasp but it does happen.

Your right, a muscle is easy to to stretch when it is relaxed, however just because a muscle is weak doesn't mean that it relaxes less or something. Stronger muscles are only more benefical with flexability to keep all the joints in place. The muscle could still be weak, but be stretched as far as a strong muscle, it would just be that once the stretch reflex threshold level has been reached, the muscle wouldn't have a strong enough contraction to protect the hip/knee joint, not that it is harder to stretch because it is weak.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.

[Graber]

Well i can say i said twice to simba_25 hahaha.

[simba_25]

Well i can say i said twice to simba_25 hahaha.

What???

[Nick B]

haha you have no idea what you're talking about.

Everytime you come into a thread you always post some bullshit off topic hating post, exactly like that. You have nothing valuable to add to the thread, or the forum, so you dont really have a reason to be here.

it doesnt suprise me that you dont understand the chambering thread i made, so then suprise suprise you just start hating becuase you cant comprehend what im talking about. Shame that, you might have found it interesting.

Kurz and Pavel both have their uses, however both of them use studies that are far far out of date, and what alot of people dont realise is that when you're making a book based on case studies, they need to be as up to date as possible. They both also greatly overlook alot of stretching techniques that can yeild very fast results with minimal effort.

Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.


dont understand? what do you mean? you make it sound mystical and amazing. it was fucking stupid. especially because you made everyone guess for 63516513621 pages before actually saying what you had in mind, and whenever someone would post something "wrong" you turned them down without backing your statements with any logic or proof.

just like now.

you keep making a bunch of stupid fucking claims without referencing ANY evidence or support, but still somehow manage to be a cocky dick when you do it.


ugh. i'll get jon to ban you soon, dont worry.

edit: and im not arguing that your stretching crap is wrong, i know basically nothing about stretching, its you that annoys the living shit out of me.

[Jon P]

you don't even have to ask me!

[Nick B]

hahahah excellent!

[anfeyd]

I haven't really read this thread but heres my input on Kurz's reasoning for strengthening the adductors for a chair split or anything else of the likes.

The golgi tendon organs in your musculotendinous unit respond to tension. Whenever the adductors are bearing enough tension for your body to think that the tendons are going to rupture a signal will be sent to turn off your adductors and activate your abductors. What does this mean if you're going to be trying a chair split? Bad things of course.

[Papa Lazarou]

simba,

Sitting in box splits and going into splits is not going to cause server tearing in the adductors

True. But if I suddenly drop into a side split, something will tear right? I assumed (with my poor poor level of knowledge) that the adductors would naturally contract in a split stretch as a preventative measure. Kurz claims something like this, and it seems intuitive to me. But I think you're more likely to be right. I suppose the contraction in the adductors is not a reflex, but just what you do to support yourself in the position.


Same with a bicep curl, if the tricep didn't eccentrically contract, you'd pop your elbow out because your bicep would contract quickly pull the weight at speed upwards.

This does seem strange. I can't feel any significant tension in my triceps in such a movement (I don't have particularly heavy weights on hand though). Can't the bicep just modulate it's own contractile force? I know muscles work synergistically, but I thought a movement was stabilized muscles other than antagonists.


however just because a muscle is weak doesn't mean that it relaxes less or something

Umm, doesn't it (specifically in a split stretch I mean)? A weak muscle must contract more than a strong muscle to exert the same force. Doesn't that mean that, while under the same weight (some body weight for instance) a weak muscle will be less relaxed than a strong one?

[Kay]

IMO, I Think Both Methods are good...but i wouldn't just rely on that do your own research because everybody is different...I Wouldn't know what working towards a split would feel like since i learnt the splits at the age of 7 and maintained them up until now, Which was quite easy at that age...but im guessing its like stretching any other muscle, so my advice is warm up and stretch and push a little bit each time u do and in time you'll have it.

[Graber]

I wanna c simba pic! lol

[simba_25]

Fuck off Graber

[simba_25]

Papa Lazarou

A muscle isn't really relaxed when its under strain so you can't really look at it as if weak muscle is less relaxed. Yeah it has to contract more to hold the same weight but this doesn't make it 'more relaxed'.

And with the contraction thing, it does happen. Because the eccentrically contracting muscle is lengthening you can't really feel it. The muscle doesn't shorten so there isn't an obvious change in its shape. When a muscle shortens it kinda bunches up at a point which is what you feel when you feel a muscle contract concentrically.

Really there isn't much more i can say on this, my knowledge has kind of run out, that and my brain has shut down because term has ended :good:

[Graber]

Fuck off Graber

arrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[simba_25]

Just face it, your never going to see a pic of me

[Graber]

Just face it, your never going to see a pic of me

U are mean :( lol.

I have a question when u do Side Split the region from your adductor the crotch is completly flat or it still remains some space? Coz i think it still remains some space. I sow a pic with Tom Kurz doing a Front Split and his back leg was side and it wasnt completly flat hmm.

[frozenpeon]

That's because he has big legs. It still 180 degrees.

[Ashtar]

i'm neither pavel's nor kurz' student, i'm just using their products & i would never say i'm stronger than one of them...If you don't say you're stronger than Pavel, then wouldn't that mean you're saying Kurz is wrong?

Actually, technically Kurz didn't call Pavel weak, just said he wasn't 'showing strength'. So he might be strong and just not showing it. Still, seems like a challenge to me.

You need strength in your adductors to increase your cold flexibility. You should be able to slide your feet to get out of the split. If you can't, it means you are not strong enaugh.This isn't a set amount of strength. It depends on how much friction you and your footwear (or feet) have with the terrain you're standing on.

Strength in the adductors is not really an issue, you need flexabiltiy in them so that you can actually do splits, its strength in the muscles surronding your hips, the abductors that need the strength so that you don't pop your hip out. A muscle doesn't have to be strong to be flexible. Strength and flexability are two very different things.

Kurz' theory might have some merit. When he says strength in the adductors, I think he means the fibres that fire at that extreme stretch. Basically, if they're strong enough to hold you, the other fibres can relax without worry. It's based around the idea that the nervous system doesn't want to put you in positions you can't escape from.

The problem is, we CAN use our hands, so the nervous system could evolve with that taken in as a factor. After all, the easiest way to get out of the splits would be to fall forward onto your hands, put your weight on them, and then adduct. The legs don't have to work as hard at all in that case.

What the topic is is not static flexibilty though, but cold flexibility. Cold is a lot like dynamic in that there's no time to prepare. The longer it takes you to slowly drop into a split, the more warmed up you are, the more you can relax.

His theory makes a lot more sense when applied to cold flexibility, which is usually what he markets. When you have less time to respond, like say you slip on some ice, you may not have time to shift your weight forward onto your arms. In that case, you squash your balls if you get splits. That's bad! If it's happening really fast, it might almost feel like you're falling. It can happen with the momentum of a dynamic stretch or a kick. That increases the threat level to your balls from being unable to shift forward onto the hands, meaning having the legs strong enough to bear the load alone (or even decelerrate your dropping torso) would be more critical for the nervous system to prioritize.

There are a lot of contortionists out there who may be too weak to adduct from a lowered position. They often stretch for very long periods and use coaches and nervous system tricks to get into their position. Being warmed up, with time to relax, with someone helping you, and tricking the nervous system, aren't options with cold stretches.

The acrobats and gymnasts who end to demonstrate this kind of stuff do tend to be rather strong. If their muscles don't look bulky it's because they're very light, and it takes less strength in the muscles to lift their body weight.

Kurz and Pavel both have their uses, however both of them use studies that are far far out of date, and what alot of people dont realise is that when you're making a book based on case studies, they need to be as up to date as possible.It's not totally based on case studies though, they do explain their theories after all. There's no reason to dismiss them if they worked then unless there's a problem with the theory or a better one comes along.

They both also greatly overlook alot of stretching techniques that can yeild very fast results with minimal effort.Which ones? I can't think of anything they haven't covered so it's got to be something new, so I want to know. Have you put it in a thread before?

Then there are some points in kurz that are just plain wrong / very very very off the ball.I've only seen his movies, haven't read the book, what kinds of errors does he make?

A muscle can contract while it is lengthening (eccentric contraction) but only if the agonist muscle is concentrically contracting (i.e. getting shorter).I don't think a concentric contraction is required for an eccentric contraction of its opposite. Does this mean what while you're lowering into a pushup your biceps are contracting? They're shortening, yeah, but I don't really think any contractions would be notable at all, except minor activations to encourage the eccentric-working muscle to keep lengthening.

A childs muscles aren't that strong but yet they are incredibly easy to stretch. Granted this is partly due to the fact that their muscles can be longer than their bones in some cases, but they're muscles are still not strong enough to contract against the force of a stretch.They also have more flexible ligaments don't they? Basically, children don't do much strength stuff, so they have less passive tension (tonus) in the muscles. Doing more activities brings more of that, including strength training. So the stiffening resulting in trauma to muscles as well as increases in passive tonus do need to be countered in the stretching. Pavel goes on about how lifting heavy increases passive tonus, but I don't recall him mentioning if that would add difficulty in relaxing that passive tonus while stretching. It seems like something worth mentioning.

There are different types of contraction that work synergistically to prevent injury. Muscles generally work in pairs where you have the agonist muscle (the one doing the movment) and the antagonist (the muscle helping to control the movement). In a press up, your triceps are contracting concentrically because they are the muscle carrying out the movement (agonist). Your biceps contract eccentrically, so get longer to prevent you from taking a nose dive to the floor at speed. If you didn't have the eccentric contraction of the biceps, the strength of your triceps (and gravity) would pull you straight to the floor.There is no way your triceps would pull you straight to the floor. They straighten your elbow. The triceps contract concentrically as you push up, and contract eccentrically as you lower down. They are the agonists. The antagonists are the biceps. They are not working noticably. Possibly the long head might be a synergist to help the ant delts if you have your elbows in.

It is rather the contraction of the biceps which would 'pull you to the ground' but rather, it is gravity that would do this since you can't pull very well with a flat palm. This would really only be possibly if you were digging your fingers in or using a bar. Tensing your elbow flexors would deactivate opposing fibres in your elbow extensors, causing the ones not deactivated to work harder to bear the same load. For this reason, as much fun as flexing a muscle is, I think it explains while you'll never work either group maximally doing such things. It is a way to shift fibre emphasis to strengthen those fibres to adapt to help you become stronger when using them in tandem at a later time.

The biceps would contract eccentrically for minute brief spurts while you lowered yourself in a pushup, to make the triceps which were locking your elbow relax. Once they do, their load will be transferred onto fibres which are fully contracted at a bent-elbow position, and it would be no longer necessary to engage those biceps muscles to make those triceps fibres relax. It is not very relevant at all, they are not worked noticably, and I think it's possible you're confusing the application of terms concentric/eccentric with agonist/antagonist here.

Same with a bicep curl, if the tricep didn't eccentrically contract, you'd pop your elbow out because your bicep would contract quickly pull the weight at speed upwards. I know its does seem hard to grasp but it does happen.This would not happen with sufficient weight. If you were moving a light weight very fast then yes, the antagonists will work to deccelerate you if you're moving too quickly. With heavy weights this doesn't happen, so it doesn't acivate, it's not required. Again, it would only activate slightly to help lower it. It's actually probably not needed, the body likes to relax and not lift a weight after all. It's needed more for lowering it with control (descending to a weaker/stretched position) than dropping it.

Your right, a muscle is easy to to stretch when it is relaxed, however just because a muscle is weak doesn't mean that it relaxes less or something. Stronger muscles are only more benefical with flexability to keep all the joints in place. The muscle could still be weak, but be stretched as far as a strong muscle, it would just be that once the stretch reflex threshold level has been reached, the muscle wouldn't have a strong enough contraction to protect the hip/knee joint, not that it is harder to stretch because it is weak.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.Like mentioned with the issue of cold stretching, it's more about, are you exhausting the nervous system so it relents and gives you the flexibility after tiring the muscles and knowing it will tear if it doesn't relax? Or allowing it to relax while not exhausted out of confidence in its own ability (I regret the need to personify the nervous system).

[Papa Lazarou]

Ashtar, I'm curious. What do you actually practise (if anything)? Or what got you into this stuff?

I hope I'm not prying or anything. You seem to have a lot of detailed knowledge (and interest) in various forms of conditioning.

[Ashtar]

I did some fencing, and then 6 months of Tae Kwon Do to get a yellow belt. I'm not skilled at all and my flexibility sucks. This frustration coupled with laziness caused me to read a bunch of books rather than actually train physically. Some from the library, most I dled free from tricks tutorials years ago and familiarized myself with yet never put into practise. As for the interest, it's just a very interesting subject, the body and how humans analyze it and think about it is amazing.

[Papa Lazarou]

So now that you have a pretty high level of knowledge, have you thought about getting back into something?

I get a bit of information paralysis sometimes, and at the moment I'm trying to get the tricking thing going effectively. I tend to over do it so I have to take a few days off to be fresh again after a session, which makes it hard to be consistent and get into a routine. But I'm getting it rolling ok finally, and I've been stretching with Kurz's method pretty consistently for about a year - though I haven't used isometrics so I'm not a split genius yet.

Flexibility is pretty much my only physical talent - not sure if it's inborn or not, but I've been above average in it for most of my memory. Still, I reckon anyone who's within a standard deviation of being anatomically normal can reach an exceptional level in almost anything if they work at it well enough.

But I guess now you'd be able to make a pretty awesome routine if you did start training again, given that you probably know more than many (maybe most) effective coaches. I mean, since you probably know Kurz's method backwards, you could get excellent flexibility pretty fast at least.

Sorry if this is off topic or whatever.

[Graber]

Hey man i wanted to go to join some shit tkd club or something but in 1 place ive understood there is no kicking in december and in an another day i went to romanian martial arts federation and they send me to another place and a guy there send me back to the federation hmm. Today at 20 pm i understood there will be someone to talk maybe but hmm and i dont know what yellow bastard have MA school in a Highschool blabla hmmm.

[Ashtar]

No kicking in December sounds pretty strange. Still, it's January in a little over a week. The secret is inversion!

[AJCN]

bO8G5zsQohg
Thomas Kurz can fuck you up with his umbrella son.

All I got from this video was that he doesn't believe in bad luck.

[Ashtar]

Kurz teaches you about hidden weapons for self defense.

[windowmaker]

I'M UNBANNED HURHURHURHUR

I GOT BANNED FOR SAYING A NAUGHTY FRENCH WORD!

I GUESS I GOT "BAN"LE'D!!!

[Ashtar]

Right....so basically Kurz is like Ryoga Hibiki. Weighted umbrella fight. Cutting off Akane Tendo's ponytail, breaking her heart.

[windowmaker]

Right....so basically Kurz is like Ryoga Hibiki. Weighted umbrella fight. Cutting off Akane Tendo's ponytail, breaking her heart.

What.... I don't really watch anime.

[Ashtar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unhl3t6aJE0

Fast forward to 2:10 to see the umbrella, though you really should watch it all.