Mixing high reps and low reps

[Skippy]

I was checking on bodybuilding.com and saw this weeks teen of the week, he's a pretty intensely built guy, been lifting for just over 2 years and he's freaking huge. He's put on 65 lbs of muscle in 2 years, which I don't personally see as unrealistic, I think with good knowledge, variation and dedication it is most definitely possible.

Here is his link:

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/teenam.htm

ANYWAY the main thing, he mentioned that he mixed low reps with high weights to get strength gains, and then after his strength training he would switch to a few sets of high reps with a lower weight for bulking. He said this way he got the advantages of the faster way to gain strength and faster way to bulk.

My question is, is this kind of training actually possible? Can you mix low reps and high reps in one workout and still get the best of both worlds? It seems too good to be true.

[Phil D]

different strokes for different folkes

[Rahf]

No offence but I'd be properly amazed if that guy was clean. 65lbs of muscle in two years is pretty damn unrealistic for your average person.

You could mix them up if you wish, it would activate most/all muscle fibers but it also depends on your goal. That guy has had focus on muscle hypertrophy and hypertrophy alone, I doubt he cares about functionality. I stick to low reps (six and below) and feel like that works fine. What you need to have is consistency, flailing around with differing weights won't bring you anywhere unless you have a proper plan and some backing by perhaps a knowledgeable coach that can check your gains etc.

Stick to programs that you know work, going by what one drugged and successful teenager says is like playing russian roulette.

[StealthyStuntman]

Hey Skippy,

Strength and endurance cannot OPTIMALLY be developed at the same time since they are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Here take a look at this:



Is an interesting read.

[Skippy]

Hey Skippy,

Strength and endurance cannot OPTIMALLY be developed at the same time since they are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Here take a look at this:



Is an interesting read.

It would not be working strength and endurance, it would be strength and hypertrophy.

e.g doing 3 sets of 2, then 3 sets of 8-10

Rahf, I'm still thinking on this, and I am fully aware of what you are saying. However, wouldn't the heavy lifting he does make an increase in his testosterone, and so help in his bulking over time as he's working on his hypertrophy also.

I just find this really interesting about how hes worked, he claims not to have used 'roids.

I've been lifting for 9 weeks now on one routine kinda thing, so I'm due for a change now. I'm going to try this low rep and high rep thing for about 8 weeks and see how it works out.

I'll letcha guys know how it goes.

[StealthyStuntman]

Sorry I didn't look at the link. But to get a good mix of strength and hypertrophy is certinaly attainable.

I would suggest a rep pyramid so you work both strength and hypertrophy such as 5,6,7,6,5. Bearing in mind this is 5RM-7RM.

As you know, hypertrophy is mainly a function of diet aswell as the exercises performed.

Notice how he puts strength before the hypertrophy. This is most probably because it is more CNS intensive so you will get more out of it by placing it at the start when you are fresh.

[Skippy]

I'm going to be on about a 3500 cal a day diet, plenty of carbs 'n' protein.

I'm currently doing the benching side of my workout (oh how I love t3h bench)

Starting with a light weight for 3 sets with stretching while resting in between sets for warming up.

Then 3 sets of 2 reps on a higher weight.

Then 3 sets on a lower weight for hypertrophy.

I'll only be doing this for upper body exercises though, mainly just on my chest, tricep and shoulder exercises as I think they're the best points on my body, so if I play around with them a bit I'm not too fussed. Any other will still be on a 5x5 routine.

[DarkXacreD]

replying to the first post,

Wouldn't that help your body from plateauing and "keep it guessing" in the sense that you're not always just doing pure strength exercises?

[StealthyStuntman]

replying to the first post,

Wouldn't that help your body from plateauing and "keep it guessing" in the sense that you're not always just doing pure strength exercises?

Well this may have some effect, but by switching the exercises or changing the order exercises are performed in in your workout does the trick also.

[Rahf]

replying to the first post,

Wouldn't that help your body from plateauing and "keep it guessing" in the sense that you're not always just doing pure strength exercises?

Volume and intensity decides and if you keep it the same, it will be the same. The body does not guess, put it through enough intensity and it will adapt.

Skippy: The increased amount of testosterone from lifting alone is like a fart in space compared to a steroid cycle. He is more likely to not be clean, everybody says they are even though they are not.

He takes dat dere cell-tech, that is what I think. His achievements do not diminish in any case, that is a wicked change. But in the sense of doping, he has "cheated".

[Skippy]

..How easy is it to get a hold of roids by the way :tongue: I'm actually semi interested haha, I wouldn't take them anywhere near the 'reccomended dosage' if I did though, I don't lift enough for it I don't think.

[Rahf]

..How easy is it to get a hold of roids by the way :tongue: I'm actually semi interested haha, I wouldn't take them anywhere near the 'reccomended dosage' if I did though, I don't lift enough for it I don't think.

Probably fairly easy, it depends on how smart and connected you are. It does produce results but it also carries risks. Also remember that once you go off a cycle, you lose alot of the gains you amassed during it. I do not endorse it since the friends I have who have tried it said it was not worth it.

[Skippy]

You just lose the weight like that? Can't you keep busting it up hard without the roids and retain the weight?

edit: in fact its a stupid idea, I remember reading never to think about using roids until I'd reached a natural plateau

[Rahf]

You just lose the weight like that? Can't you keep busting it up hard without the roids and retain the weight?

edit: in fact its a stupid idea, I remember reading never to think about using roids until I'd reached a natural plateau

Since you're coming off an external feed of testosterone, your own hormones can't sustain the same levels and your body thus loses capability of retaining muscle. You can't work as hard as during a cycle since your body loses enhanced recovery, endurance, strength etc.

It just feels unnecessary to do if you're just starting out, that time should be spent learning proper technique in exercises and also learning what works for you.

[rock_ten_]

oh, that guy. He was on T-nation. Yea he says he doesn't juice, although he did a cycle of PH's apparently, but he says he didn't gain anything new from them or something. I don't know if he really juices or not, obviously I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but its possible he is natural. Its the same as anything, you do get people who are just so far above average with this kind thing.

I can't find the thread but it was somewhere in this forum: http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/category.jsp;jsessionid=ADA71499FE228EAD005D7C5EBA A47F2E.hydra?categoryID=6&pageNo=1&s=forumsNavTop



As for mixing low reps and high reps... well firstly its not exactly a crazy and uncommon thing to do. I've heard people (Pavel is one) who think that within a workout its best to stick to a fairly narrow rep range. Plenty of people mix them, though. Its common for PLers to do low-rep shit in their workout and then do some 10's at the end with random shit.

Another way to do it would be to have seperate days for low-rep shit and high-rep shit. Whether you plan it out or not, just keep them seperate. Layne Norton does something like this - he has a section here: http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/natural-bodybuilding/
where you can look up some shit

I tend to think that unless you've got some kind of weight-class restriction then avoiding "high" (let's say 6+.. or more like ~10) reps is only going to disadvantage you. Everyone's different though with what kind of reps (or really, what kind of weights) works well for them.
Low rep shit, like <5 reps, mostly takes away from my fitness and doesn't build me up, whereas I improve rapidly in a kind of 8-12 rep range. Other people get big and strong on almost exclusively 1-3 reps.

[Phil D]

You just lose the weight like that? Can't you keep busting it up hard without the roids and retain the weight?

edit: in fact its a stupid idea, I remember reading never to think about using roids until I'd reached a natural plateau

you can usually expect to keep 2/3 of the gains if you know what your doing. Test tapers seem to be the way to go for keeping gains. Its pretty stupid to think about AAS use untill you have about 5 years training under your belt, your diet is perfect, and you are in your mid 20s or over.

[rock_ten_]

Skippy - in England steroids are very easy to come by. But since you're 17, I suggest you forget about them for a good few years yet. If you're a beginner then you can likely experience "steroid-like gains" as it is

[Honken]

A person under 21 years of age has about the same amounts of testosterone in his system as someone in his 30s who's juicing (mild cycle). You keep most of your gains if you're on a good cycle and a good PCT. The problem with PCT's is that they're a bitch to come through for most people (migranes, depression, acne).

But doing a cycle if you're a beginner and under 25 is useless, stupid and really stupid. Injecting yourself 1-4 times a week and sometimes eating pills, followed by more injections and even more pills after the cycle will mess you up pretty badly if your body is still developing. Not to mention that it's almost impossible to hide and it costs a few thousand dollars.

[Rahf]

And let's get this straight people, if you're on a cycle, you will be injecting. Pills are for the past :ogre:

[Honken]

Exactly. They ruin your liver and won't do much in comparison to injections. Not to mention that in order to keep your gains and prevent bitch tits you'll need a decent PCT, which includes injections.

[TrickerD]

I do rep pyramids for arm isolation exercises. Would that be effective for hypertrophy?

[Skippy]

So about this high rep low rep stuff anyway...

[anfeyd]

So about this high rep low rep stuff anyway...

You can do them both at once ie: west side for skinny bastards. Or you can cycle them. Chose it, try it, see how it goes.

[rock__ten_]

A person under 21 years of age has about the same amounts of testosterone in his system as someone in his 30s who's juicing (mild cycle).

That would have to be a really mild cycle...

If we take "under 21" to mean like, whenever that individual had his highest T levels during puberty, then it would be pretty rare to find someone with 1000ng/dL, even 800 might be pushing it.
After that you get kind of 500ng/dL on average maybe, but the range is wide, and it varies depending on what you're doing (e.g bulking/cutting)

Here's part of a post I made a while ago, which includes the equivalent blood T levels from an example steroid dose:



679ng/dL of T (a pretty good natural level) is 0.034mg of T in the blood (5L of blood).

200mg of, say Testosterone enanthate, which isn't a very big dose afaik, would be eqiuvalent (in terms of the actual number of molecules, which is what matters) to 144mg of Testosterone (because T enanthate molecules are about 38% heavier than T molecules). This is 15-30 times as much T as is produced naturally in the body each day, and also if released into the blood all at once, would mean 1,600,000ng/dL, which as you can see is about 1600 times greater than even an extremely high natural level.
But, its infact released slowly from the site of injection, such that blood T levels never rise nearly that high.

Here's an example from some website:


Maximum concentrations of testosterone of 20 ng/ml [2000ng/dL] were measured 1.5 - 3 days after i.m. administration of 250 mg of testosterone enanthate to young men. Thereafter, testosterone levels in the plasma decreased with a half-life of about 4.5 days which corresponds to the release rate from depot.

Testosterone concentrations of ≥2 ng/ml were maintained for 20 days and concentrations ≥1 ng/ml for 26 days. [weird, very low..] With a dose of 250 mg testosterone enanthate, patients receive a total dose of 180 mg testosterone. Around the time where maximum serum levels are achieved, average daily doses after 1 and 2 weeks correspond to 12 and 4 mg testosterone, respectively. Within approximately 4 weeks after drug administration, testosterone is completely released from the depot.

so 250mg of T enanthate produced a maximum blood level of 2000ng/dL which is about three times as high as a rather good natural level.

[Phil D]

That would have to be a really mild cycle...

If we take "under 21" to mean like, whenever that individual had his highest T levels during puberty, then it would be pretty rare to find someone with 1000ng/dL, even 800 might be pushing it.
After that you get kind of 500ng/dL on average maybe, but the range is wide, and it varies depending on what you're doing (e.g bulking/cutting)

Here's part of a post I made a while ago, which includes the equivalent blood T levels from an example steroid dose:



679ng/dL of T (a pretty good natural level) is 0.034mg of T in the blood (5L of blood).

200mg of, say Testosterone enanthate, which isn't a very big dose afaik, would be eqiuvalent (in terms of the actual number of molecules, which is what matters) to 144mg of Testosterone (because T enanthate molecules are about 38% heavier than T molecules). This is 15-30 times as much T as is produced naturally in the body each day, and also if released into the blood all at once, would mean 1,600,000ng/dL, which as you can see is about 1600 times greater than even an extremely high natural level.
But, its infact released slowly from the site of injection, such that blood T levels never rise nearly that high.

Here's an example from some website:



so 250mg of T enanthate produced a maximum blood level of 2000ng/dL which is about three times as high as a rather good natural level.

iv always been really interested in getting my test levels checked out. Do you know if you can go down the local doctors surgery and have it done? do you have to pay for it?

[Honken]

Thanks for posting that rock_ten, I read it somewhere and was quite sceptical about it (it was a pretty in depth article so I took it for granted).

[rock__ten_]

iv always been really interested in getting my test levels checked out. Do you know if you can go down the local doctors surgery and have it done? do you have to pay for it?

The NHS won't do it just because you're interested, but if you complain of feeling tired, low sex drive, difficulty recovering from exercise, etc etc then you can probably get one, along with thyroid shit and some standard things - I never had any trouble. They'll probably only do total T, not free, as that requires what is apparently a more difficult test and they are reluctant to order it (it takes longer to come back, too).


Honken - do you remember what article it was?

[Phil D]

The NHS won't do it just because you're interested, but if you complain of feeling tired, low sex drive, difficulty recovering from exercise, etc etc then you can probably get one, along with thyroid shit and some standard things - I never had any trouble. They'll probably only do total T, not free, as that requires what is apparently a more difficult test and they are reluctant to order it (it takes longer to come back, too).


Honken - do you remember what article it was?

ah rite, not that knowing what my test levels are would make any difference to anything

[CodyLee1337]

I call bs on that like Rahf said it's pretty hard to even imagine this guy being clean.

[Ashtar]

replying to the first post,

Wouldn't that help your body from plateauing and "keep it guessing" in the sense that you're not always just doing pure strength exercises?It doesn't really guess, it just causes preferential adaptation in different fibres. With strength training, you push the fastest-twitch ones to the limit, but end before you really push teh slower-twitch ones to theirs. Whereas with higher reps, you can push the slower ones to their limits, but not even activate the faster ones sometimes.

[DarkXacreD]

replying to the first post,

Wouldn't that help your body from plateauing and "keep it guessing" in the sense that you're not always just doing pure strength exercises?

Volume and intensity decides and if you keep it the same, it will be the same. The body does not guess, put it through enough intensity and it will adapt.


It doesn't really guess, it just causes preferential adaptation in different fibres. With strength training, you push the fastest-twitch ones to the limit, but end before you really push teh slower-twitch ones to theirs. Whereas with higher reps, you can push the slower ones to their limits, but not even activate the faster ones sometimes.

Will you guys calm down? I know the body doesn't ACTUALLY guess. That's why I put quotation marks, goddamnit!

[anfeyd]

Will you guys calm down? I know the body doesn't ACTUALLY guess. That's why I put quotation marks, goddamnit!

1. They didn't call you an idiot and make fun of your question.

2. Rahf answered your question politely.

3. Don't post a question if you don't expect people to give you an answer.

4. If you knew it didn't guess then why did you type it?

[DarkXacreD]

I put it in quotation marks!!!

Y'know what, it doesn't actually matter at all.

[anfeyd]

I thought you put it in quotations because you didn't know what actually happened.

[mr popular]

The guy in that link had a giant thread over at t-nation where he went into detail about his training and whatnot... he has used prohormones in the past. There is a big retarded debate about whether or not he has used steroids because a bunch of idiots think his collar bones look short and theres just NO WAY that someone who puts in the time and hard work necessary to build muscle could possibly have achieved more than their own lazy waterbury-loving asses.

But anyway, of course you can mix high reps and low reps. Muscle gains are directly correlated with strength gains anyway, so most bodybuilders choose the get stronger in a moderate rep range, but if you want to you can vary things.