Dan Perez you are just awesome

[mike111590]

seriously man this explains the different types of transitions so well. It all makes sense now.
http://www.aeriformmat.com/combinations.html

I can not wait till the True Kick Terminology guide comes out. All the names is place are just nonsense
I just wanted to let you know your work is much appreciated keep working hard daddy <3

[TONE TONE]

that is truly amazing and very helpful

[mike111590]

i can't believe more people don't think this is awesome

[Tocano]

"Denoted by an equals ( + ) symbol."

needs to be fixed

[Urahara]

you got me excited because i thought that he might have finished TKT guide

trick dad rules

[mike111590]

"Denoted by an equals ( + ) symbol."

needs to be fixed

yes they're a couple of mistakes but i'm sure they will b fixed with time

[Nick Fail]

he's been working hard on this shit. the TKT guide is MASSIVE. its kinda disturbing how well put together it is. i looked over it. there are no holes.

[gabrielb]

kinda confused by the difference between rapid and punch.

[Reim]

I find this highly informative and my respect for the author has grown. I plan on referring others to this document.

[Iikkap]

These things will cause so much confusion. Also, I really hope no one starts to type with the rediculous / ( " : , language.

[Reim]

These things will cause so much confusion. Also, I really hope no one starts to type with the rediculous / ( " : , language.

It is the most efficient way! You just don't understand true parkour.


Wait, which forum is this again?

Sorry I thought I was on 3run.co.uk

[Butteroll]

man..this heavy on the terms I already know...but damn is this helpful.

[Iikkap]

It is the most efficient way! You just don't understand true parkour.


Wait, which forum is this again?

Sorry I thought I was on 3run.co.uk

We should also imply the Sessh shortenings to this. B+CS\B-A

[gabrielb]

We should also imply the Sessh shortenings to this. B+CS\B-A

looks like a computer program language.

[TONE TONE]

the only thing i had a little bit of a hard time understanding was how the tak9 is a wrap thru?

[sebben]

he is a sterdy source of information indeed

[Iikkap]

the only thing i had a little bit of a hard time understanding was how the tak9 is a wrap thru?

come to think of it, doesn't that make a c720 twist a wraptrough, haha.

[Dave]

I think this is actually pretty stupid.:eh:

[shengoikee]

i <3 dan perez

but i probably won't use his terminology. i still like to read his articles though!

[mike111590]

I think this is actually pretty stupid.:eh:

how is it stupid at all. It is excellently explaining the different transitions that most people have no idea about.
The rapid transition is so fucking hard but so awesome looking. I have been tring to do spin round > Rapid btwist for a while now. I think i finally got it

[Victor_S]

This was really good, I liked the definitions though I won´t use all that symbol stuff.

To Dan: the unknown guy who does 540 ml 540 ml 540 in the missleg exampler is Rubén Blasco. Fix it when you can =)

[Dave]

I should have clarified I mean the ~!@#$%^&*( thingy. I think the intention is for it to be more efficient, but to have to learn and memorise what each symbol denotes is silly and imagine a new tricker coming in and just seeing a bunch of letters and symbols. It's not very effective for communications.

[Skilzat85X]

i <3 dan perez

but i probably won't use his terminology. i still like to read his articles though!
Likewise haha.

He has put forth much study into tricking.

[mike111590]

I should have clarified I mean the ~!@#$%^&*( thingy. I think the intention is for it to be more efficient, but to have to learn and memorise what each symbol denotes is silly and imagine a new tricker coming in and just seeing a bunch of letters and symbols. It's not very effective for communications.

ok i agree with you there. I think it would be smarter just to write out the transition name with things like
Missleg = m/l
swing through = s/t
carry through = c/t
wrap through = w/t
Rapid = R
etc. with abbreviation's with letters rather then symbols

[mike111590]

I'm already using his terminology. There are no holes ever, everything just makes sense.

[Dave]

Yeah indeed it makes way more sense. Like, saying btwist + cork seems a little silly when you can just say btwist swing cork or btwist s/t cork. Actually btwist > cork is enough really because there's not really any other common way that you'd be transferring from a btwist to a cork. But you know what I mean.

[Dave]

And I don't want to dwell on this too much but this caught my eye: "Ex. "Btwist round kick" is "Btwist/"

I don't think that could be any more confusing. Just seeing Btwist/... what is wrong with saying twist-round or btwist-round :eh:. I see where he's coming from with the TKT or whatever, giving tricks true names, but giving transitions and variations symbolised denotations seems counter-productive and unnecessery to me.

[Vaughnya]

DAN PEREZ IS AWESOME!

[n3m3s1s]

It don't think I'll use the ^'¨~"#¤ stuff, but I have to try some "rapid" stuff :D

[gabrielb]

kinda confused by the difference between rapid and punch.

help?

[mike111590]

The easiest rapid is hyper side flip > Rapid side flip
land the hyper with your non-hyper leg already taking off for the next side flip. Almost like you were gonna do side flip punch side flip but off one leg

[mike111590]

help?

From what I understand: A punch is like if you were to do front tuck punch front tuck. its where u use the momentum from your last trick to "Punch" into your next one off of two feet.
A rapid would be applying that concept to taking off one leg. Loser s/t Loser only occurs when u land ur first loser one on leg and SWING your second leg back to continue the momentum. A Loser Rapid Loser would be if as your landing your first webster on one leg your second leg is already where it needs to be and you just PUNCH off the one leg. They are very difficult to preform
I hope that makes sense.

[gabrielb]

From what I understand: A punch is like if you were to do front tuck punch front tuck. its where u use the momentum from your last trick to "Punch" into your next one off of two feet.
A rapid would be applying that concept to taking off one leg. Loser s/t Loser only occurs when u land ur first loser one on leg and SWING your second leg back to continue the momentum. A Loser Rapid Loser would be if as your landing your first webster on one leg your second leg is already where it needs to be and you just PUNCH off the one leg. They are very difficult to preform
I hope that makes sense.

rapid kinda sounds like a misleg since u use the mometum to move u wit that one leg.

[mike111590]

rapid kinda sounds like a misleg since u use the mometum to move u wit that one leg.

"A Rapid... can be thought of as a one leg punch or an instant missleg"

It is a missleg happening where the landing is punched very quickly into the next trick.

[NyCz JeSteR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ieomH2NFg


Manny Brown @ 1:30 , Rapid!

[gabrielb]

ohhh ok. i kinda get it now.

[DarkXacreD]

While I found it a useful article to define the different transitions, I think it'll take a while before the symbols and stuff get used by everybody. Almost all of them make me wonder why that particular symbol was used, and why a different symbol wasn't used.

[Tocano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ieomH2NFg


Manny Brown @ 1:30 , Rapid!

looks more like a misleg

[mike111590]

Yeah Jim, that was I think more of a miss leg. But if it were faster and more instantaneous then yes it would be a rapid

[Reim]

I dont think Dan meant that the symbol system be used communally by everyone. It was probably the way he writes them, personally in his journal or whatever, and figured it was a really effective way to show the connections between individual skills while keeping it short (I too have abbrviations of a lot of tricks so I dont have to write the whole thing) and wrote an article for it.

You don't have to follow everything you read, people. Read between the lines, next time.

[mike111590]

I dont think Dan meant that the symbol system be used communally by everyone. It was probably the way he writes them, personally in his journal or whatever, and figured it was a really effective way to show the connections between individual skills while keeping it short (I too have abbrviations of a lot of tricks so I dont have to write the whole thing) and wrote an article for it.

You don't have to follow everything you read, people. Read between the lines, next time.

u speak words of wisdom

[Ambitrixterous]

Haha thanks everyone for all the positive AND negative feedback. Reim hit in pretty much exactly, the symbols are more for me right now than everyone else so in my many many pages of "tricking" text it says things like:

720\ Btwist +cork +540/ \envergado _hyper 540/

Instead of:

720hook > Btwist swingthru cork swingthru 540round > hook > envergado punch hyper 540round

which, to ME, seems inefficient. There is more reasoning behind this but yea certainly if it's not working for you leave it- the idea is to take what's helpful and leave the rest behind. NOW that being said, even this article isn't completely finished (and yes thank you guys for pointing out a couple things that needa be fixed) but the site is in a state of being totally redone right now and will return with full TKT (guaranteed, ZERO holes in that) and a few more things before moving onto an even bigger project including some serious tutorials for lumberjacks only.

To clarify on the difference between 'rapid' and 'missleg,' missleg helps as a transition because the leg that gets 'missed' is moving in such a way that it's rebound helps you gain momentum before you takeoff into the second trick. A 'rapid' is instantaneous and doesn't move whatsoever while you are on the ground (just like a punch)

To clarify on wrapthru: 'wrap' works as a takeoff for vert kicks just the way 'cheat' does: the difference between the two being the stance you're in when you leave the ground: Wrap is standard stance just the way Cheat is backside even though both have you with the same leg already in the air before you leave the ground (left leg for left spinners.)

How does that work for NON-vert kicks? If we're talking "cheat720twist" the way most perform the movement you'll notice the same difference in positioning and timing of the takeoff. The "cheat720twist" will have the 1st leg off the ground and the actual takeoff a split second after. The "tak9" will have the first leg up and carried around behind before the actual takeoff. This is due to the nature of wrapthru as a swingthru in the first place:

-wrapthru works as a swingthru in a circle around the performer rather than in a straight line. We know this already, but why is it so? This happens because the second trick is happening in a disagreeable motion than the position the performer is in will allow. Example: cw wrapthru full. The second leg to come down to finish the carthwheel is coming downwards, as in will swingthru upwards into a BACKWARDS movement, such as a gainer. But if you're cartwheeling right and planning on twisting right, you're looking at an imposter GMT (gainer full the wrong way). The wrapthru comes in by having that second leg tranistion still in a downwards motion but changing the direction YOU are facing and making the actual trick into a FORWARDS movement (similar to Aerialtwist). If you're thinking "like axeto Atwist?" I like where your head is at but sorry it's the wrong leg from your axeto. This is what makes wrapthru twist different and for many of us more difficult. Same concept, wildy different method!

Tak 9 works the same way. If you've ever heard Prodigy describe what he's doing, you'll hear "cheat9 mixed with frontflip." The wrap comes in because we again have the same problem: cheat takeoff requires you to LIFT your leg, however frontflip has you pulling everything DOWN behind you. The result? You will be using that 'lifting' leg to pull around behind you as you move into what would otherwise be the frontflip if it were not for the twist. Wrapthru fits wherever you have a trick and a transition that don't mix. Just like me around fat chicks- ONE of us can't be there!

[remthetreme]

maybe already said....

Some short vid with tha transition-move willl be awesome to refer to the text, there is some transition that I have no idea how to use

Ho yeah... I love your article Dan

[shengoikee]

i just wanna see dan's new samp!!!

[mike111590]

Haha thanks everyone for all the positive AND negative feedback. Reim hit in pretty much exactly, the symbols are more for me right now than everyone else so in my many many pages of "tricking" text it says things like:

720\ Btwist +cork +540/ \envergado _hyper 540/

Instead of:

720hook > Btwist swingthru cork swingthru 540round > hook > envergado punch hyper 540round

which, to ME, seems inefficient. There is more reasoning behind this but yea certainly if it's not working for you leave it- the idea is to take what's helpful and leave the rest behind. NOW that being said, even this article isn't completely finished (and yes thank you guys for pointing out a couple things that needa be fixed) but the site is in a state of being totally redone right now and will return with full TKT (guaranteed, ZERO holes in that) and a few more things before moving onto an even bigger project including some serious tutorials for lumberjacks only.

To clarify on the difference between 'rapid' and 'missleg,' missleg helps as a transition because the leg that gets 'missed' is moving in such a way that it's rebound helps you gain momentum before you takeoff into the second trick. A 'rapid' is instantaneous and doesn't move whatsoever while you are on the ground (just like a punch)

To clarify on wrapthru: 'wrap' works as a takeoff for vert kicks just the way 'cheat' does: the difference between the two being the stance you're in when you leave the ground: Wrap is standard stance just the way Cheat is backside even though both have you with the same leg already in the air before you leave the ground (left leg for left spinners.)

How does that work for NON-vert kicks? If we're talking "cheat720twist" the way most perform the movement you'll notice the same difference in positioning and timing of the takeoff. The "cheat720twist" will have the 1st leg off the ground and the actual takeoff a split second after. The "tak9" will have the first leg up and carried around behind before the actual takeoff. This is due to the nature of wrapthru as a swingthru in the first place:

-wrapthru works as a swingthru in a circle around the performer rather than in a straight line. We know this already, but why is it so? This happens because the second trick is happening in a disagreeable motion than the position the performer is in will allow. Example: cw wrapthru full. The second leg to come down to finish the carthwheel is coming downwards, as in will swingthru upwards into a BACKWARDS movement, such as a gainer. But if you're cartwheeling right and planning on twisting right, you're looking at an imposter GMT (gainer full the wrong way). The wrapthru comes in by having that second leg tranistion still in a downwards motion but changing the direction YOU are facing and making the actual trick into a FORWARDS movement (similar to Aerialtwist). If you're thinking "like axeto Atwist?" I like where your head is at but sorry it's the wrong leg from your axeto. This is what makes wrapthru twist different and for many of us more difficult. Same concept, wildy different method!

Tak 9 works the same way. If you've ever heard Prodigy describe what he's doing, you'll hear "cheat9 mixed with frontflip." The wrap comes in because we again have the same problem: cheat takeoff requires you to LIFT your leg, however frontflip has you pulling everything DOWN behind you. The result? You will be using that 'lifting' leg to pull around behind you as you move into what would otherwise be the frontflip if it were not for the twist. Wrapthru fits wherever you have a trick and a transition that don't mix. Just like me around fat chicks- ONE of us can't be there!

dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome.
lol u and fat chicks

[Taimatsu]

Dan is an excellent teacher. In case any of you may have noticed, I spent about 5 years of my tricking experience with dominant tumbling skills and no kicks more advanced than a failure attempt at a jacknife. If you'd seen any of my recent vids, it's true that I'm advancing rapidly with my kick technique, transitioning, and speed.

I actually offer all due credit to Dambi-perexterous and his excellent kicking system.

It's not just a system to identify the "true" number of times that you spin in the air. It's actually a system that helps you UNDERSTAND what you're doing in the air, and why it works like it does.

[Augenatic]

To be completely honest, I think that most of it is nonsense. The info about the transitions is correct, but the examples? Aerial w/t aerialtwist, what the hell? Btwist(hook) PUNCH corkscrew(hook), what the hell??!

[Ambitrixterous]

To be completely honest, I think that most of it is nonsense. The info about the transitions is correct, but the examples? Aerial w/t aerialtwist, what the hell? Btwist(hook) PUNCH corkscrew(hook), what the hell??!

hmmm nice try but that would be Btwist inside hook POP corkscrew inside hook. The wrap example w/Chris is labeled that way because his wrapthru twist is inverted as opposed to horizontal. I know the more common term for the invert version is "wrapthru full" but I try to stay away from using "full" because it seems vague to me... like I said there's editing to be done to this and all the other pages so I may change that part.

[Iikkap]

hmmm nice try but that would be Btwist inside hook POP corkscrew inside hook. The wrap example w/Chris is labeled that way because his wrapthru twist is inverted as opposed to horizontal. I know the more common term for the invert version is "wrapthru full" but I try to stay away from using "full" because it seems vague to me... like I said there's editing to be done to this and all the other pages so I may change that part.

Calling something an aerial twist that isn't an aerial twist also seems vague.

EDIT: Also in the pop setup examples you're saying Kalman is doing aerial (POP) 720 backflip. Now, we all know that aerial - full works the same way as cw - full, correct? Now, cw - full looks a LOT more like a cw - aerial twist, than a wrapthrough full does. Why's that one a "backflip 720" and not a dbl aerial twist? :F

[Augenatic]

hmmm nice try but that would be Btwist inside hook POP corkscrew inside hook.Haha, pop or punch, that wasn't my point. My point was, inside hook? Wth, it's a round kick. And how can you pop a corkscrew? What Anis did was a fulltwist round man.

Also, in the swingthrough examples, you say gswitch + 360 backflip, when it's a cork! In the same section, you call a stepover 900 a 540, haha. In the same section again, you call a webster a front flip.

Take no offense, but I think that you haven't got enough knowledge in the "correct" or commonly used tricking terminology, to actually describe it.

I have a feeling of that I'm going to get flamed right now, but I don't really care. This is just my opinion, haha.

[Nick Fail]

Haha, pop or punch, that wasn't my point. My point was, inside hook? Wth, it's a round kick. And how can you pop a corkscrew? What Anis did was a fulltwist round man.

Pop corkscrew. lets break this down. Corkscrew-I'd best describe a corkscrew as a horizontal twist that has a backwards flip in it. Anyone disagree? A Corkscrew's inversion is between 45 degrees to horizontal. where as a fulltwist would be from 45 degrees to completely inverted, yes? well add a pop transition to a corkscrew, taking off for a corkscrew with two feet. The best example i can give is from flo's sampler 2. He does cork S/T cork> pop cork> s/t gainer etc etc. If you watch then you can see that he is doing the exact same move (corkscrew) from his first corkscrew but just touching his foot as a transition. thats about as simple as i can make it. and about the kicking system being nonsense....call me the biggest asshole in the world but...the only people that say its nonsense are the same ones who refuse to use backside and still cant Cheat 720 R {Ch9} and they have been working on it for over a year. Maybe you should not just reject it right away and see if it can help you. Maybe you'll progress then. I'm not trying to be mean but i'm trying to show you that it can help you. maybe what your doing isn't working.


also, the other sections. The reason why they are labeled the way they are, is because thats true spin. Webster is a one foot take off to a front flip. A reverse pop. A 360 backflip is the most dumbed down way to say "Gainer full". If you knew the true difference between a gainer full and a cork as well as had an open enough mind to maybe try new things and learn something. then you might be able to put forth contribution to this thread. all your doing is solidifying dan's points and the stereotype of newer trickers refusing to accept anything that your idol didn't say. cause i bet someone you look up to says that you can pop a cork. but i bet they cant do it or a gainer full either.

[Alexx]

didn't csoka used to do a lot of pop corks as well ?

[Nick Fail]

didn't csoka used to do a lot of pop corks as well ?

omg yes. shit i forgot about him. he's amazing at them, they're in every video thanks for pointing that out. it seems like all the leetztor trickers are fond of pop corks. hmm...

[Taimatsu]

omg yes. shit i forgot about him. he's amazing at them, they're in every video thanks for pointing that out. it seems like all the leetztor trickers are fond of pop corks. hmm...

I found them the other night.

That and boxcutters. :smile:

[Augenatic]

Pop corkscrew. lets break this down. Corkscrew-I'd best describe a corkscrew as a horizontal twist that has a backwards flip in it. Anyone disagree? A Corkscrew's inversion is between 45 degrees to horizontal. where as a fulltwist would be from 45 degrees to completely inverted, yes? well add a pop transition to a corkscrew, taking off for a corkscrew with two feet. The best example i can give is from flo's sampler 2. He does cork S/T cork> pop cork> s/t gainer etc etc. If you watch then you can see that he is doing the exact same move (corkscrew) from his first corkscrew but just touching his foot as a transition. thats about as simple as i can make it. and about the kicking system being nonsense....call me the biggest asshole in the world but...the only people that say its nonsense are the same ones who refuse to use backside and still cant Cheat 720 R {Ch9} and they have been working on it for over a year. Maybe you should not just reject it right away and see if it can help you. Maybe you'll progress then. I'm not trying to be mean but i'm trying to show you that it can help you. maybe what your doing isn't working.


also, the other sections. The reason why they are labeled the way they are, is because thats true spin. Webster is a one foot take off to a front flip. A reverse pop. A 360 backflip is the most dumbed down way to say "Gainer full". If you knew the true difference between a gainer full and a cork as well as had an open enough mind to maybe try new things and learn something. then you might be able to put forth contribution to this thread. all your doing is solidifying dan's points and the stereotype of newer trickers refusing to accept anything that your idol didn't say. cause i bet someone you look up to says that you can pop a cork. but i bet they cant do it or a gainer full either.
Yeah, I can see your point. But, I can't see the point in confusing new tricksters with the alternative terms though. It's 2:38 AM here anyway, my brain is half shut off at the moment, I might write a longer response tomorrow when I can actually think.

[Nick Fail]

Yeah, I can see your point. But, I can't see the point in confusing new tricksters with the alternative terms though. It's 2:38 AM here anyway, my brain is half shut off at the moment, I might write a longer response tomorrow when I can actually think.

its all good man. i understand. peace

[zambri]

would a pop cork round be the same thing as a full twist round kick?

seems like it would be...

[Taimatsu]

would a pop cork round be the same thing as a full twist round kick?

seems like it would be...

Nick Vail already covered this.

A cork is between 0 degrees and 45 degrees. A fulltwist is between 45 degrees and 90 degrees on the spinning axis.

To generally place it: If your shoulders are directly below your hips while you spin, then it is a fulltwist.

[Source]

Whats an inside hook?

[Skilzat85X]

To be honest I consider anything that isn't a back flip with a full rotation to be a "cork" full off two feet. I mean, that's what a full is from it's origination, back flip with 360 degrees rotation.

It's all good, nothing wrong with that cork full anyways, it's useful. Granted I don't mind if people still call it full, I know what they mean.
No point in not acknowledging the terms of others when you clearly know what they mean, knawmean?

[Taimatsu]

Whats an inside hook?

Example: Btwist inside hook @ 0:37 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qjivdHCrXg

...it's any hook done in the opposite direction of your spin. It is done by leading your round kicking leg ahead of your "target" and swiping back over it while still spinning in the original direction.

Like say I'm doing a tornado-inside hook counterclockwise. My kicking leg (right leg) would reach out and hit my target in a clockwise hook.

[Reim]

Example: Btwist inside hook @ 0:37 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qjivdHCrXg

...it's any hook done in the opposite direction of your spin. It is done by leading your round kicking leg ahead of your "target" and swiping back over it while still spinning in the original direction.

Like say I'm doing a tornado-inside hook counterclockwise. My kicking leg (right leg) would reach out and hit my target in a clockwise hook.
Inside hook = Reverse round house kick (Term I learnt in Karate for it)


Right?

[Skilzat85X]

L33t kick style!

[Taimatsu]

Inside hook = Reverse round house kick (Term I learnt in Karate for it)


Right?

Uuuuuh...sure. :eh:

[mike111590]

no and inside hook is not a reverse round kick
and inside hook is where u are using a hook kick to kick behind you. So your body is past your hooking target.

[Skilzat85X]

...so you mean a reverse round kick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAays0zNXfA
Pretty terrible example, but you get the idea.

Just a technical goofy name, it's synonymous. Inside hook is obviously a tricking name, since I'm sure you won't find the label used in TKD or whatever other MA's.

[mike111590]

Haha, pop or punch, that wasn't my point. My point was, inside hook? Wth, it's a round kick. And how can you pop a corkscrew? What Anis did was a fulltwist round man.

Also, in the swingthrough examples, you say gswitch + 360 backflip, when it's a cork! In the same section, you call a stepover 900 a 540, haha. In the same section again, you call a webster a front flip.

Take no offense, but I think that you haven't got enough knowledge in the "correct" or commonly used tricking terminology, to actually describe it.

I have a feeling of that I'm going to get flamed right now, but I don't really care. This is just my opinion, haha.

your stupid. think about the amount of degrees your are really spinning in a "step over 900"
I don't think you understand. tricking terms as they are today do not properly describe the tricks that we are doing. We call it a full twist (blackflip with 360 degree spin) but we are really doing a corkscrew off two feet (pop cork) because we never do a full flip like in a backflip.
and he says gswitch + 360 backflip b/c it is not a cork it is obviously a "gainer full" which is a 360 backflip.

think about it :wink:

[Flowers]

Semantics schemantics antics rantics rants ants indiana jones and the plastic cling wrap skulls.

[mike111590]

Semantics schemantics antics rantics rants ants indiana jones and the plastic cling wrap skulls.

skull fucker

[Nick Fail]

now you've done pissed off mike maguire. shit....

[Iikkap]

call me the biggest asshole in the world but...the only people that say its nonsense are the same ones who refuse to use backside and still cant Cheat 720 R {Ch9} and they have been working on it for over a year. Maybe you should not just reject it right away and see if it can help you. Maybe you'll progress then. I'm not trying to be mean but i'm trying to show you that it can help you. maybe what your doing isn't working.



I'm not saying the dan terminology is nonsense, I'm just saying that our current one works. And switching terminologies just doesn't work, people will get hella confused. The fact that c720 is sometimes called 540 crescent already causes people think it's two different tricks. I don't see a problem with calling a trick "c900", if that includes the spin in the whole movement instead of the spin in the air. And I, myself, do not refuse to use backside tricks. In fact I love bs9's. And I was just about to start working on bs10s before I hurt my foot.


the stereotype of newer trickers refusing to accept anything that your idol didn't say.


What makes Dan important enough that everyone should accept his terminology? K, I had a fairly big break from TT. I wasn't active here for like 1.5 years or so, then when I start posting more again I get called retarded for not knowing about some fairly random "Dan's" terminologies. I've never actually heard of the guy before, I've never seen him trick, I've never talked to him. What makes him important enough for me to suddenly change the terminology I've used for 5 years to his?

...so you mean a reverse round kick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAays0zNXfA
Pretty terrible example, but you get the idea.

Just a technical goofy name, it's synonymous. Inside hook is obviously a tricking name, since I'm sure you won't find the label used in TKD or whatever other MA's.

That's a hook kick.

[mike111590]

who cares if you know who Dan is or not all that matters is that it makes sense. most new trickers that i try to explain any of our existing kick terminology to look at me like i have 9 heads. they always say "that does not look like a 900 degree rotation" and i say " well its a cheat 900" "why don't you just call it what it really is."
Face it man, our terminology for tricks (mostly kicks) can be very confusing to a new tricker. where Dan's just makes more sense and is like 10times easier to explain and understand

Its like aeriform is using the metric system and everyone else is still stuck on the American system.

[Iikkap]

who cares if you know who Dan is or not all that matters is that it makes sense. most new trickers that i try to explain any of our existing kick terminology to look at me like i have 9 heads. they always say "that does not look like a 900 degree rotation" and i say " well its a cheat 900" "why don't you just call it what it really is."
Face it man, our terminology for tricks (mostly kicks) can be very confusing to a new tricker. where Dan's just makes more sense and is like 10times easier to explain and understand

Its like aeriform is using the metric system and everyone else is still stuck on the American system.

Well to "who cares if you know who Dan is", that was mostly a counterargument to Nick's "can't do what your idol doesn't". As in: I'd rather do what my idols do than what a completely random guy suddenly tells me to do without backing it up in a way that would convince me :)

Still, I usually don't have trouble explaining the degree amounts. It's the whole move that counts, not the amount you spin in the air. Backside names are, in a way, quite misleading, though I've come up with a way to explain them too, haha.

The biggest counterargument I have against the whole "new terminology" is the transition from old to new. There will always be people who don't want to change the way they call stuff. The TT-site tutorials have old trick names. People who don't visit TT will use the old names. I understand that what you guys are trying to achieve is to make things easier, but I can only see more confusion resulting from half the trickster using other terminology than the other half. That+I don't agree with all the kick names :)

For example, you call pop 720 a 720 hook, right? But then you call a cheat 720 hook a cheat 540 hook? As I see it, they are pretty much the same trick, just from a different setup.

This whole "anti new-terminolgy" of mine might be just because I've already used these names for 5 years. Kinda as if I had a friend called Matt who I've known for 5 years, and suddenly he tells me "Call me Andy from now on, it makes perfect sense because I look just like Andys usually do" :tongue:

[mike111590]

this is a stupid argument that will never be solved b/c it is point of view VS point of view

I think this new terminology makes more sense and is easier to explain to new trickers. I'm done talking to you

[Skilzat85X]

That's a hook kick.

No FREAKING duh ahaha.

I mean why do you think in some MA's it's called "reverse round kick"? Because it follows close to the same path as a round kick, only in reverse. Lord you people.

[Iikkap]

this is a stupid argument that will never be solved b/c it is point of view VS point of view

I think this new terminology makes more sense and is easier to explain to new trickers. I'm done talking to you

Allrighty, no harm done.

No FREAKING duh ahaha.

I mean why do you think in some MA's it's called "reverse round kick"? Because it follows close to the same path as a round kick, only in reverse. Lord you people.

Well, they were trying to explain what an INSIDE hook is, and you were suggesting it's a normal hook. Lord YOU Skillz :<

[Skilzat85X]

Oh whatever it has the same technicalities of a hook just done against ones momentum, which makes it harder, fancier, yet not as pretty haha.

[Iikkap]

Oh whatever it has the same technicalities of a hook just done against ones momentum, which makes it harder, fancier, yet not as pretty haha.

I do have to agree with that, haha. Harder, yet uglier kicks ftw.

[Augenatic]

your stupid. think about the amount of degrees your are really spinning in a "step over 900"
I don't think you understand. tricking terms as they are today do not properly describe the tricks that we are doing. We call it a full twist (blackflip with 360 degree spin) but we are really doing a corkscrew off two feet (pop cork) because we never do a full flip like in a backflip.
and he says gswitch + 360 backflip b/c it is not a cork it is obviously a "gainer full" which is a 360 backflip.

think about it :wink:

It's a cork haha. If that's classified as a gainer full, I can't see why uninverted fulls can't be called "fulls" instead of pop corks! And I don't care about degrees in moves, haha! And so what if a 720 is only 540 degrees in total? Why change the whole kicking terminology, if everyone's used to the thing we're using now? If you don't understand the kicking terminology after a little while as a newb, you're pretty retarded. It's easy! 360, 720, 1080 are all outside kicks. In the 360, you start with the back to the target, kick at the target and yes, 360! 720, back at the target, 180 and spot, 360 and spot. You saw the target twice, two rotations, 720. 540, 900, 1260, inside kicks. The same principle as the outside kicks, just with an inside going kick instead of the outside one! It's simple enough already, why make it even more simple?

[shengoikee]

i do think it's possible to fully understand tricking without the use dan's terminology and a lot of what you guys are saying is "wrong" isn't wrong at all in my opinion. eg pop vs backside vs cheat tricks can already be broken down using current terminology.

regardless, dan's put a lot of work into creating his system and there's nothing wrong with it as another point of view. it's very creatively oriented. eg the misslegs, swingthroughs, carrythroughs etc. and i guess the strongest argument for using the system is that it would serve to further develop transitions/setups/combos in general. as good as this seems you might end up losing a lot of fundamental (and necessary imo) concepts straight from the martial arts.

personally, i still think it would be a bad idea for anybody to start using different terminology. as a learning system it's fantastic, but it'll only end up doing more harm than good if used as a standard terminology.

[Skilzat85X]

Hurray for Dave Hill's sensibleness! :smile:

[Flowers]

So then, what would a Btwist Stomp be in Dan's terms?

[Nathan.P.]

Shits starting to get too confusing...I'll still do the trick the same with or without using the "correct" terminology. So it doesn't matter what you guys want to call it. It just might cause confusion eventually.

[Iikkap]

It's easy! 360, 720, 1080 are all outside kicks. In the 360, you start with the back to the target, kick at the target and yes, 360! 720, back at the target, 180 and spot, 360 and spot. You saw the target twice, two rotations, 720. 540, 900, 1260, inside kicks. The same principle as the outside kicks, just with an inside going kick instead of the outside one! It's simple enough already, why make it even more simple?


Exactly. And if someone is retarded enough not so realize that there's a 180 degree difference in the hip placement for a hook and a round kick, he should look more into the basics first :) It doesn't go that way for outside and inside crescents though, but it's fair enough to say that the moves were named with hooks and rounds in mind.

[KJER]

me and dan tricked yesterday at fanime in san jose!
untill we got kicked out!

[Nick Fail]

For example, you call pop 720 a 720 hook, right? But then you call a cheat 720 hook a cheat 540 hook? As I see it, they are pretty much the same trick, just from a different setup.

no. We call a "pop 7" a pop 540 hook and a "C720" a cheat 540 hook (As you said) but no they are not the same trick. A 720 hook for TKT is a BS 1080. and a cheat 540 hook is the same thing as a 360 hook without a cheat take off. Its all based off of true spin. A cheat 540 hook is a 360 in the air but branches off from the pop 540 hook. Just as a pop 720 round to a cheat 720 round. The cheat take off subtracts 180 degrees from pop version of the kick making backside such and important learning tool. And this "dan" guy is the only guy who can do every trick in the book on both sides. i train with him and i've seen him land every conventional move on both sides. he did double btwist uphill both sides. so he had to teach himself on the other side and he taught our whole team. He's a good guy. catch him on aim sometime man. :good:


It's easy! 360, 720, 1080 are all outside kicks. In the 360, you start with the back to the target, kick at the target and yes, 360! 720, back at the target, 180 and spot, 360 and spot. You saw the target twice, two rotations, 720. 540, 900, 1260, inside kicks. The same principle as the outside kicks, just with an inside going kick instead of the outside one! It's simple enough already, why make it even more simple?

um...no.... because there is a 720 inside kick and a 720 outside kick. 720 hook and 720 round. as well with every other interval of kicking. thats why its so good. pop, swing, backside, w/t, msl, illusion, c/t. all of those have different intervals for the kicks. Wanna know something that most people wont tell you? you've all seen mike maguire's W/T 1080 right? Well its only a 540 degree spin. And jaime colon's arial to 1080? thats a 720. When you understand this, its easier to 1. learn it because you can practice the prereqs in succession and 2. it keeps everything more real, there are very few people who can do a true 1080. Anis is one of the only ones i've seen do a NON CHEATED 1080 roundkick. sorry dave C and gary ip but you took off backside for most of them (props for the 900 round though) i've seen a few others but calling it a 1260 with a bad take off bothers me. same as any kick thats past a 540 degree spin with an outside kick, automatically a 1080! these are just my gripes. like the "Cheat 1080" its a 720 in the air. that bothers me. I'd prefer not to talk myself up. Plus i grew up on TKT so trying to call something a bigger spin than it is, is annoying.

[Iikkap]

no. We call a "pop 7" a pop 540 hook and a "C720" a cheat 540 hook (As you said) but no they are not the same trick. A 720 hook for TKT is a BS 1080. and a cheat 540 hook is the same thing as a 360 hook without a cheat take off. Its all based off of true spin. A cheat 540 hook is a 360 in the air but branches off from the pop 540 hook. Just as a pop 720 round to a cheat 720 round. The cheat take off subtracts 180 degrees from pop version of the kick making backside such and important learning tool.

Here I kinda have to disagree, see, check this for example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X25lKB2z7pw
Now, many people don't 720 like that, but that's how the move is perfectly done, correct? No matter how you count it, it's 720 degrees in the air. A pop 360 is 360 degrees, add one more spin before the kick, makes sense it's 720. But I do have to agree that most people, definately including me, don't spin 720 degrees in the air in their pop7s. It's a matter of how you visualize the moves in your head I guess :)

And this "dan" guy is the only guy who can do every trick in the book on both sides. i train with him and i've seen him land every conventional move on both sides. he did double btwist uphill both sides. so he had to teach himself on the other side and he taught our whole team. He's a good guy. catch him on aim sometime man. :good:

Well, as I said I haven't seen any videos of him, didn't mean to belittle him or anything :) That's pretty impressive tbh. And well, I figured he's probably decent at tricking because he trains with you guys. I already explained earlier why I disliked the terminology change etc, no use saying that again. I just want to point out that there was no intention of offending any of you guys, just felt like saying what I thought about it, haha. :good:

EDIT: On you reply to Augenatic's post: That's kinda the point of the "cheat" term, to tell that you cheat in the setup. The way I see the current terminology is this: the normal POP version of the trick is the "base trick".

Let's use a 720 as an example. The pop 720 I linked from Terada is a full 720 spin. Now, if you took off from standing, you'd be in your fighting pose, with your right foot in front, spinning counter-clockwise. Then cheat 720: go into the same stance, right foot in front, then use the cheat setup instead of the pop setup, kick in the same place you would have in the pop 720. Cheat 720 has less amount of spinning in the air, because it's a CHEAT 720. You CHEAT in the setup.

Logic for rounds: Right, same stance, right foot in front, counter-clockwise spinning, you do the same amount of spinning as in a pop 720, but kick the same target with a roundhouse kick instead of a hook kick. Same amount of degrees? No. When you hook the target, you're sideways to the target with your left leg sticking out, kicking. When you roundhouse, you're sideways to the target with your right leg kicking out. That's where the 180 comes from. Also, if you end the kick into a fighting pose, you'll be kicking the roundhouse through, and going all the way to the fighting pose with your LEFT leg in front. 720 ends up with right leg in front, 900 end up with your left leg in front. This is naturally not the case if you combo them, but doing the technique properly, starting from a stance, ending into a stance, this is how it should go.

Backsides: The way I see backsides is that they are 180 degree "cheated" (note: not cheat setup, just cheated) POP kicks. Let's take bs9. Now, in the pop9 setup stance you're standing with your right leg in front. Do a stance switch-hop, and move on the the backside trick. That's how I visualize it. The base trick is the pop version, backside is a 180 degree "cheated" version of it, stance switch - bs9.

Now, I don't do wrapthrough or carrythrough kicks, and I'm guessing Dan's terminology fills the holes better in those. Dunno :)

And I'm quite sure you know all the stuff I wrote about "our terminology". What was I trying to achieve? Trying to point out that there indeed is a working logic even in the current terminology.

But I'd guess it's a point of a view kind of a thing. You've grown into using Dan-terminology, I've grown into using this one :)

[Nick Fail]

Here I kinda have to disagree, see, check this for example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X25lKB2z7pw
Now, many people don't 720 like that, but that's how the move is perfectly done, correct? No matter how you count it, it's 720 degrees in the air. A pop 360 is 360 degrees, add one more spin before the kick, makes sense it's 720. But I do have to agree that most people, definately including me, don't spin 720 degrees in the air in their pop7s. It's a matter of how you visualize the moves in your head I guess :)

Thats a HYPER 540 hook making it a 720. thats correct being that that trick that steve did was in fact a 720 in the air because he hypered it. a pop 540 hook you dont hyper unless you say that your gonna. so yeah i agree with you in that respect, visual preferance.

that video kinda proves how stupid Sport karate people CAN be. I was just like them at one point. ever see that doubleleg quarter gyro that they think is a Dleg twist? yeah.....hahah!

[Iikkap]

Thats a HYPER 540 hook making it a 720. thats correct being that that trick that steve did was in fact a 720 in the air because he hypered it. a pop 540 hook you dont hyper unless you say that your gonna. so yeah i agree with you in that respect, visual preferance.

that video kinda proves how stupid Sport karate people CAN be. I was just like them at one point. ever see that doubleleg quarter gyro that they think is a Dleg twist? yeah.....hahah!

Technically it's not a hyper though, since he landed on both legs. HAWWHAWW. But yeah, most people's 720 don't look like that :)

[Nick Fail]

Technically it's not a hyper though, since he landed on both legs. HAWWHAWW. But yeah, most people's 720 don't look like that :)

Yes it is, a hyper can be a one foot or two foot landing. as long as you rotate that extra 180, its a hyper.

Backsides: The way I see backsides is that they are 180 degree "cheated" (note: not cheat setup, just cheated) POP kicks. Let's take bs9. Now, in the pop9 setup stance you're standing with your right leg in front. Do a stance switch-hop, and move on the the backside trick. That's how I visualize it. The base trick is the pop version, backside is a 180 degree "cheated" version of it, stance switch - bs9.

Backsides are cheated by 360 degrees if you use the mainstream terminology. a backside 900 is only 540 degrees, which is why we call it a 540 round. where as the normal "pop 900" is only 720 degrees in the air. you take off pop stance spin twice and kick, landing in that same pop stance.

But I'd guess it's a point of a view kind of a thing. You've grown into using Dan-terminology, I've grown into using this one :)

yeah it is point of view. i like friendly debates like this though, it helps fill in holes that you've missed. and i think thats why dan has come up with such a good system, he's defended it for so long. he's filled in all the holes.

[Iikkap]

Yes it is, a hyper can be a one foot or two foot landing. as long as you rotate that extra 180, its a hyper.


Differences in definition again I guess :> To me hyper is landing on the foot you wouldn't normally land on. 180 extra=half gyro for me.


yeah it is point of view. i like friendly debates like this though, it helps fill in holes that you've missed. and i think thats why dan has come up with such a good system, he's defended it for so long. he's filled in all the holes.

Ayeaye, I actually enjoy all debates, haha. Ah well, I there's nothing to go further with, possibly some holes have been filled and we might have a better understanding of eachother, haha.

Thanks for the fun, now it's time for me to sleep. 1:32am in Finland :<

[Nick Fail]

aight man, peace. good talking to you. :good:

[Ambitrixterous]

Haha wow, hella knowledge bein dropped in this thread. Looks like Nick & Tai & Mike have pretty much covered my end, & I totally understand the opposition as well. The big hole is this:

-yes, we have already a way of doing things. It works ok for most of us.
-the current kick terminology is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, it's a fact.

I created TKT because it holds true through 100% of every single vert kick that we have ever seen and any that will ever come. It includes the "newer" terms that most trickers just don't know about like wrap & trip, the difference between swingthru kicks and wrapthru kicks when done in transition, and more.

I know it's a big change to make and that so many people are dead set in the current ways, but consider what you've just read and the fact that without much work at all we as a community could make the simple upgrade from "ok" to "perfect" and NEVER HAVE THESE RIDICULOUS DEBATES AGAIN, at least for kicks. For me, the biggest reason to change (other than how annoying it is for everyone to basically lie about what they're doing) is just so tricking fits in with all the other extreme sports like skate boarding & snow boarding.

About the rest of the tricking terminology. Yes, I agree there are inconsistencies all over MY site, which is why it's being redone right now! But trust I have a whole fuck'n TEXTBOOK on tricking in my room that I write in night and day, and what I have NOW is a near-complete restructured tricking. As in ALL of it. Everything. Don't take my word for it, take a look when it's done. Why? So that people don't argue back and forth nonsensically all day on TT or elsewhere ever again. So that someday when tricking matters to the rest of the world it's professional and complete just like everything else.

I'm not saying everyone has to care about terminology, or even that everyone should! But if you're going to care, make sure you're doing it right. If you're going to spread influence to fresh minds on what's going on, make sure you know your shit. I'm happy to answer every single question anyone has about my stuff, but again it's pointless to debate until it's finished. Until then I don't expect anyone to jump on board, just a big thanks for appreciating my hard work to anyone who does.

[Ambitrixterous]

me and dan tricked yesterday at fanime in san jose!
untill we got kicked out!

yessir we did! Drunk guy fallin over dying in the background & "security" (if you can call those fools security!) comes over to tell us we're being dangerous. Please. I've boxcuttered people for less, how DARE they! :tongue:

[Kyle McLean]

Yeah Jim, that was I think more of a miss leg. But if it were faster and more instantaneous then yes it would be a rapid

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SRD_o71Xxv8


1:02 rapid!

[ngswipe]

lets not drop our standards, proper hyper=land on the other foot + 180 extra

[Urahara]

Haha wow, hella knowledge bein dropped in this thread. Looks like Nick & Tai & Mike have pretty much covered my end, & I totally understand the opposition as well. The big hole is this:

-yes, we have already a way of doing things. It works ok for most of us.
-the current kick terminology is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, it's a fact.

I created TKT because it holds true through 100% of every single vert kick that we have ever seen and any that will ever come. It includes the "newer" terms that most trickers just don't know about like wrap & trip, the difference between swingthru kicks and wrapthru kicks when done in transition, and more.

I know it's a big change to make and that so many people are dead set in the current ways, but consider what you've just read and the fact that without much work at all we as a community could make the simple upgrade from "ok" to "perfect" and NEVER HAVE THESE RIDICULOUS DEBATES AGAIN, at least for kicks. For me, the biggest reason to change (other than how annoying it is for everyone to basically lie about what they're doing) is just so tricking fits in with all the other extreme sports like skate boarding & snow boarding.

About the rest of the tricking terminology. Yes, I agree there are inconsistencies all over MY site, which is why it's being redone right now! But trust I have a whole fuck'n TEXTBOOK on tricking in my room that I write in night and day, and what I have NOW is a near-complete restructured tricking. As in ALL of it. Everything. Don't take my word for it, take a look when it's done. Why? So that people don't argue back and forth nonsensically all day on TT or elsewhere ever again. So that someday when tricking matters to the rest of the world it's professional and complete just like everything else.

I'm not saying everyone has to care about terminology, or even that everyone should! But if you're going to care, make sure you're doing it right. If you're going to spread influence to fresh minds on what's going on, make sure you know your shit. I'm happy to answer every single question anyone has about my stuff, but again it's pointless to debate until it's finished. Until then I don't expect anyone to jump on board, just a big thanks for appreciating my hard work to anyone who does.


does your system include cheat gainer?

[Ambitrixterous]

does your system include cheat gainer?

Cheat this gainer bitch



:tongue: <3 Zach

[Urahara]

kinda confused by the difference between Rapid and Punch.

195.02 AMU approximately

[Urahara]

lets not drop our standards, proper hyper=land on the other foot + 180 extra

go look at some of kjer's hypertwist to atwist type combos

[Iikkap]

Haha wow, hella knowledge bein dropped in this thread. Looks like Nick & Tai & Mike have pretty much covered my end, & I totally understand the opposition as well. The big hole is this:

-yes, we have already a way of doing things. It works ok for most of us.
-the current kick terminology is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, it's a fact.

I created TKT because it holds true through 100% of every single vert kick that we have ever seen and any that will ever come. It includes the "newer" terms that most trickers just don't know about like wrap & trip, the difference between swingthru kicks and wrapthru kicks when done in transition, and more.

I know it's a big change to make and that so many people are dead set in the current ways, but consider what you've just read and the fact that without much work at all we as a community could make the simple upgrade from "ok" to "perfect" and NEVER HAVE THESE RIDICULOUS DEBATES AGAIN, at least for kicks. For me, the biggest reason to change (other than how annoying it is for everyone to basically lie about what they're doing) is just so tricking fits in with all the other extreme sports like skate boarding & snow boarding.

About the rest of the tricking terminology. Yes, I agree there are inconsistencies all over MY site, which is why it's being redone right now! But trust I have a whole fuck'n TEXTBOOK on tricking in my room that I write in night and day, and what I have NOW is a near-complete restructured tricking. As in ALL of it. Everything. Don't take my word for it, take a look when it's done. Why? So that people don't argue back and forth nonsensically all day on TT or elsewhere ever again. So that someday when tricking matters to the rest of the world it's professional and complete just like everything else.

I'm not saying everyone has to care about terminology, or even that everyone should! But if you're going to care, make sure you're doing it right. If you're going to spread influence to fresh minds on what's going on, make sure you know your shit. I'm happy to answer every single question anyone has about my stuff, but again it's pointless to debate until it's finished. Until then I don't expect anyone to jump on board, just a big thanks for appreciating my hard work to anyone who does.

Yessir! I understand it can feel a bit frustrating when you've put an insane amount of effort into something and then some people have no interest in it :dead:

Let us rediscuss this more when you're actually done with the whole thing :)

[Nick Fail]

go look at some of kjer's hypertwist to atwist type combos

Yesss!!!

<3 zach! See you in 2 days papito!