Squats vs. Plyo for Vertical Jump: when should i stop one for the other?

[generalbbb]

I did tae kwon do for many years so i have a lot of "bounce" to my step. reading the vertical jump bible suggested that i dont have a lot of power, but plenty of explosiveness.

SO i started doing squats and have already gained a few inches.

i've heard some say to stop when you can squat and deadlift twice your body weight, but how many reps/sets?

i usually do 3-4 sets of 8 squats (ATG) at 155 pounds. I can only deadlift 3 sets of 8 reps at 115.

i weigh 175 on average and have maybe 8 or 9% body fat.

so what do you guys recommend? thanks a lot

[Skippy]

From what I know, you shouldn't be doing plyometrics until you can squat double your body weight. Lower your squat reps and up the weight, lower it to 5 reps, I'd generally say 5 sets of 5 reps on a weight so heavy you can only do 5 reps.

I'd also say 5x5 on deadlifts, check your form, then up that weight and lower the reps.

When you're squatting 300, then plyometrics may be a better consideration.

[shengoikee]

step 1: squat double bodyweight

step 2: do plyometrics

you should continue with both really

[Phil D]

i usually do 3-4 sets of 8 squats (ATG) at 155 pounds. I can only deadlift 3 sets of 8 reps at 115.

you can squat more than you can deadlift?:eh:

[Cicero]

I did tae kwon do for many years so i have a lot of "bounce" to my step. reading the vertical jump bible suggested that i dont have a lot of power, but plenty of explosiveness.

SO i started doing squats and have already gained a few inches.

i've heard some say to stop when you can squat and deadlift twice your body weight, but how many reps/sets?

i usually do 3-4 sets of 8 squats (ATG) at 155 pounds. I can only deadlift 3 sets of 8 reps at 115.

i weigh 175 on average and have maybe 8 or 9% body fat.

so what do you guys recommend? thanks a lot

5x5 on squats and deadlifts.

[chicanerous]

4x6, 5x5, 6x4, 8x3

[JacktheHero]

There is no "vs", you should do both, but the ratio may vary. Tricking is plyometric activity and I don't remember anyone crying "squat double bw THAN trick"...
With those stats you don't need to worry anyway, I'd aim for something like 2,5x - tripple bodyweight deadlift ;.)

[Skippy]

Well yeah if we said that then hardly anyone would be tricking, and a quick trick session I don't imagine is as strenious as a proper plyometrics session.

Although, lets note too how many trickers get joint problems, lololawl, if it was a perfect world than yeah, it would be squat double bodyweight THEN trick :]

[generalbbb]

is it weird that i can squat more than i can deadlift?

[chicanerous]

is it weird that i can squat more than i can deadlift?
Yes. Possible reasons:

1. You're wearing gear (e.g. a bad-ass suit).
2. You're injured.
3. You're squatting high.
4. You're a n00b.

[untitled1]

is it weird that i can squat more than i can deadlift?

i'm not going to lie but for your weight and size those are pretty poor lifts.

[Papa Lazarou]

"But"?

[Skippy]

i'm not going to lie but for your weight and size those are pretty poor lifts.

Everyone starts somewhere even if they are low numbers.

[Ewasiuk]

From what I know, you shouldn't be doing plyometrics until you can squat double your body weight. Lower your squat reps and up the weight, lower it to 5 reps, I'd generally say 5 sets of 5 reps on a weight so heavy you can only do 5 reps.

I'd also say 5x5 on deadlifts, check your form, then up that weight and lower the reps.

When you're squatting 300, then plyometrics may be a better consideration.

It's actually 1.5x your body weight. Or if you survive a week or two or plyometrics, it shouldn't be a problem to do them if you can't squat very much.

[generalbbb]

i dont use gear and my form is pretty good for squats, decent for deadlifts. I accept your criticism that my lifts are poor. What weight do you think i should be at for both? and are we talking one rep maxes or what?? thanks again guys =]

sooo

1. no gear
2. not injured
3. i don't think im squatting high at all
4. i've been lifting on and off for maybe 2 years. combined total of 6 months id say (which is fairly inexperienced comparatively speaking). so maybe im just a noob?


OH and i can bench about 170 pounds 3 sets of 8....


so i my Bench > Squats > Deadlift

.... am i disproportionate?

[frozenpeon]

so i my Bench > Squats > Deadlift

What the hell?

This is the corect order:
Deadlift > Squat > bench > Military press

[jan]

Do you squat more or less ATG (ass to grass) or do you do the regular "stop at 90 degrees (in other words quarter-squats)?


If it's the latter, you're squatting high.

[generalbbb]

yes, if you bothered to read the post, i do ATG. thanks though.

[jan]

And you go allll the way down so your shins touch your thighs, more or less?

I read your post, but I missed the small (atg) part, apparently.

Oh well, if you're doing everything correctly; just lift, I guess.

[Franks]

What if you don't have weights. So is one leg squats a good substitute to weighted squats, to get ready for plyometrics?

[tricker383]

jan knows his shit by the way so take his advice if i were you, stop being cheeky and just listen and learn

[hamelkarl]

not really... haha

[generalbbb]

jan knows his shit by the way so take his advice if i were you, stop being cheeky and just listen and learn

learn from what exactly? pretty much what he said was "just lift more i guess"

[ButtHash Hero]

Bill star's 5x5 is good. Remember to ramp the weights because it's not good for you if you do your maximum 5x5, lmao.

[jan]

To give you actual training advice, I'd have to know more than just "I lift ATGish, my max squat and dead lifts are weaker than my bench".

How long have you lifted for? Do you have any disabilities? How is your diet? What is your training regime? How much training is your body used to?

Going straight onto a Bill Starr 5x5 program might exhaust you, if you haven't trained properly and intensely already. I know, I got an inflamed sartorius from just that program. (Squats 3 times a week + basic kicks training + tricking = instant fail.)

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Squats 3 times a week + basic kicks training + tricking = instant fail.:good:It's so hard to keep on top of them all.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Squats 3 times a week + basic kicks training + tricking = instant fail.:good:It's so hard to keep on top of them all.

Edit: WTH,double post!:agony:

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpcalculator.html

[generalbbb]

To give you actual training advice, I'd have to know more than just "I lift ATGish, my max squat and dead lifts are weaker than my bench".

How long have you lifted for? Do you have any disabilities? How is your diet? What is your training regime? How much training is your body used to?

Going straight onto a Bill Starr 5x5 program might exhaust you, if you haven't trained properly and intensely already. I know, I got an inflamed sartorius from just that program. (Squats 3 times a week + basic kicks training + tricking = instant fail.)

oh, well if only you asked.

i've lifted for about 6 months. 4000 calories a day, i dont measure my protein intake (too much of a hassle =[) i trained for at least 2 months (2 muscle groups per day rotation) before doing the Bill Starr 5 x 5. no disabilities. i can train hard. i do the bill star and trick in between workout days. i also see progress in all of my lifts so i'm doing things right.

[hamelkarl]

Seeing progreass in all of your lift don't means your doing it right dude.

[generalbbb]

Seeing progreass in all of your lift don't means your doing it right dude.

you are correct. but it also doesnt mean i'm doing it wrong. i have very good squatting form, very good benching form, and at least decent deadlift form.

[jan]

oh, well if only you asked.

i've lifted for about 6 months. 4000 calories a day, i dont measure my protein intake (too much of a hassle =[) i trained for at least 2 months (2 muscle groups per day rotation) before doing the Bill Starr 5 x 5. no disabilities. i can train hard. i do the bill star and trick in between workout days. i also see progress in all of my lifts so i'm doing things right.

Well, that's it: "Too much hassle" with the protein measuring.

Measuring every calorie takes a little while in the beginning (but it takes literally no time after you've gotten into it), but measuring protein takes 2 seconds of brain activity to figure out. Say you're 175 lbs, you generally want somewhere in between 175-200grams of protein (controversial, like any other nutritional tip, but it works).
Say 180 grams: 180/6 = 30 grams. 6 meals of 30 grams of protein per day, or 4 meals of 45 grams per day.

That's one shake per meal, or a chicken filet, or a piece or two of salmon per meal. Not much of a hassle. To grow you need an adequate amount of protein per day. 4000 kcals can be 4000 calories of 30/30/30 everything, 80% carbs or all fat. That's why at least finding out how much protein you get per day is necessary to be sure you're actually gaining muscle mass.

And gaining doesn't equal doing it right. The first 6 months you're bound to gain in your lifts. When you reach the first plateu, you're going to struggle if you don't actually commit somewhat to your training, however. That's mainly the reason why most "gym rats" fail after reaching say... a 230 lbs bench press: They don't commit.

Not that I'm saying you're not committed to your training. Just don't neglect such basic things as proper form, nutrition and varying your regime from time to time.

Also, if you want to "gain": Compound exercises. Squats, bench, deads, pulldowns, chin ups, rows, military press etc... "X amount of muscle per day" usually doesn't work over a longer period of time.

I've changed from going: Lower body day, upper body, upper/lower body to Lower/upper, lower/upper, lower/upper to "lower, upper, upper, lower body" to (currently due to an injury): "upper upper upper upper upper upper............. (which I hate).

Try going for logical muscle groups. Back/biceps/hams, chest/triceps/quads, quads/shoulders... something similar.
Rows, chin-ups and Romanian deadlifts utilize your hams, biceps, lats, traps etc, all in those three lifts alone.

Front squats work your quads and warm up your shoulders for a shoulder-heavy session of military presses, side and front raises etc.



... meh, I'm all ranting again.


You probably get the idea.

[anfeyd]

Seeing progreass in all of your lift don't means your doing it right dude.

Please tell me how getting stronger does not mean you are doing something right.

[generalbbb]

Well, there's your problem: "Too much hassle" with the protein measuring.

Measuring every calorie takes a little while in the beginning (but it takes literally no time after you've gotten into it), but measuring protein takes 2 seconds of brain activity to figure out. Say you're 175 lbs, you generally want somewhere in between 175-200grams of protein (controversial, like any other nutritional tip, but it works).
Say 180 grams: 180/6 = 30 grams. 6 meals of 30 grams of protein per day, or 4 meals of 45 grams per day.

That's one shake per meal, or a chicken filet, or a piece or two of salmon per meal. Not much of a hassle. To grow you need an adequate amount of protein per day. 4000 kcals can be 4000 calories of 30/30/30 everything, 80% carbs or all fat. That's why at least finding out how much protein you get per day is necessary to be sure you're actually gaining muscle mass.

And gaining doesn't equal doing it right. The first 6 months you're bound to gain in your lifts. When you reach the first plateu, you're going to struggle if you don't actually commit somewhat to your training, however. That's mainly the reason why most "gym rats" fail after reaching say... a 230 lbs bench press: They don't commit.

Not that I'm saying you're not committed to your training. Just don't neglect such basic things as proper form, nutrition and varying your regime from time to time.

Also, if you want to "gain": Compound exercises. Squats, bench, deads, pulldowns, chin ups, rows, military press etc... "X amount of muscle per day" usually doesn't work over a longer period of time.

I've changed from going: Lower body day, upper body, upper/lower body to Lower/upper, lower/upper, lower/upper to "lower, upper, upper, lower body" to (currently due to an injury): "upper upper upper upper upper upper............. (which I hate).

Try going for logical muscle groups. Back/biceps/hams, chest/triceps/quads, quads/shoulders... something similar.
Rows, chin-ups and Romanian deadlifts utilize your hams, biceps, lats, traps etc, all in those three lifts alone.

Front squats work your quads and warm up your shoulders for a shoulder-heavy session of military presses, side and front raises etc.



... meh, I'm all ranting again.


You probably get the idea.

good advice. i DO make sure i eat protein though, 3 cups of 2% milk a day at least (my body cant handle whole T_T), steak or chicken (or fish if available) if i eat bread its strictly wheat or whole grain, pasta. you know. calorie dense stuff.

my bench began at 75, i hit a plateau at 150, stopped lifting for a month, came back to it and now i'm at around 175.

thanks jan

[jan]

Please tell me how getting stronger does not mean you are doing something right.

Repeated bad form, which will only get worse as you keep training and reach plateus. Gaining 100 lbs in your dead might also mean you get a prolapse, if your form is bad.

Also, irregular or ineffective training patterns will show to halt you after a certain period of time. In the first months, you will gain (more or less no matter what, as long as you actually do something). Eventually though, you will come to a halt.

You probably already knew this though.

[generalbbb]

stop posting at the same time as me you jerk

[jan]

good advice. i DO make sure i eat protein though, 3 cups of 2% milk a day at least (my body cant handle whole T_T), steak or chicken (or fish if available) if i eat bread its strictly wheat or whole grain, pasta. you know. calorie dense stuff.

my bench began at 75, i hit a plateau at 150, stopped lifting for a month, came back to it and now i'm at around 175.

thanks jan

Well, 3 cups of milk only equals around:

2 decilitres per cup on average, 3.5 grams of protein per decilitre = around 20 grams of protein.
And 20 grams is only 1/9th of what you need.

Steak, chicken and fish are all great sources of protein, and milk is a decent protein source too.

My usual protein sources are: Whey, eggs, milk, steak, chicken, fish... Yeah.

Think about it: Get one litre (about 1/4th gallon) of milk + 1 scoop of whey, and you've got around 65-70 grams of protein in that alone! Divide that litre over 2 meals, and you've got 2 meal servings of protein already!

Gaining is a good sign though, and having a varied meal plan is great:)

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

All this talk of precious foods are making me hungry! QUICK! TO THE SLEEP STACK-MOBILE!

[anfeyd]

Repeated bad form, which will only get worse as you keep training and reach plateus. Gaining 100 lbs in your dead might also mean you get a prolapse, if your form is bad.

Obviously, if you are using bad form. I didn't really know in what context Karl posted that but I was assuming it wasn't pointed to form reasons.

Also, irregular or ineffective training patterns will show to halt you after a certain period of time. In the first months, you will gain (more or less no matter what, as long as you actually do something). Eventually though, you will come to a halt.

Yes, beginners will progress easily but as long as you are getting stronger you are doing something good for the mean time but I do agree that it may not be ideal but that doesn't mean its bad (even though more times than not it is).

[hamelkarl]

thanks Jan to have answer the question over... I tought Anfeyd should have already known the answer. Anyway, you said about almost all the shit I had to say.

Yes, beginners will progress easily but as long as you are getting stronger you are doing something good for the mean time but I do agree that it may not be ideal but that doesn't mean its bad (even though more times than not it is).

Yes it is bad on muscle memory and are more subject to injuries!

[anfeyd]

thanks Jan to have answer the question over... I tought Anfeyd should have already known the answer. Anyway, you said about almost all the shit I had to say.



Yes it is bad on muscle memory and are more subject to injuries!

I stopped talking about bad form because I didn't think of it in the first place.

[hamelkarl]

okay! I was suprised that it was you who asked the question. I think most of the question post here can be found on bodybuilding.com easily. They should try to read more there. They have a lot's of nice articles really fun to read.