Alternative for Squats

[[RozoN]]

Lately I've discovered that I have excess hip/ass/lower back movement on my squats. Basically I'm failing to keep my lower back straight when going down into my squat. Like this fellow here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8

This causes lower back pain. Trying to keep my back straight only causes me to have a "half squat" or a "shallow squat" which is also shit :eh:.
So there's no way around it, exept stretching my hams and strengthening my lower back.

Now, in the meantime, I don't want to abandon my legs, so I need an alternative for squats. I was thinking of replacing it with box squats, since they don't require to go as deep as normal squats, but still have more or less the same range of motion. Although, since I'm not really experiences in it, I'd like to hear some other suggestions or ideas. Who knows, maybe I don't need to replace squats at all...:smile:

Edit: The video is not such a good example, but I hope you'll get the idea :smile:

[chicanerous]

A box squat requires you to go to wherever the box is... which could be deep or could be shallow.

Just do half squats as you continue to work on it.

Stretch your hip flexors.

[Kon-El]

In the past I have found that using overhead squats frequently, at least as a warm-up, seemed to help my overall flexibility and stability in the squat. Other than that, what chic said.

Fake edit: I mean they helped overtime, not immediately for that particular workout.

[Steve]

A box squat requires you to go to wherever the box is... which could be deep or could be shallow.

Just do half squats as you continue to work on it.

Stretch your hip flexors.

But what if you wish to train your hip flexors too chicanerous!?!?!? What then!?!?!

[[RozoN]]

A box squat requires you to go to wherever the box is... which could be deep or could be shallow.

Just do half squats as you continue to work on it.

Stretch your hip flexors.

Wouldn't half squats be too much of a strain on my knees? :eh:. I mean, if I use a box (a box that is on the level where I can squat with a straight back), wouldn't that somehow take the pressure of the knees?:eh:

[Counterfeit Soda]

Sort of on the same subject, I know I've seen a seminar with Louie Simmons, where he talks about how his lifters ONLY do box squats except during their competitions. They don't train the normal squat at all, and I think their success speaks for itself on how effective box squats can work, if indeed they are a viable option for you.

[BrandonLenz]

http://www.chinastrategies.com/squats%20clr.jpg+http://school.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/milk.gif

[anfeyd]

A lot of successful people use mainly box squats such as Defranco. I still wouldn't abandon regular squats though.

Rozon, the majority of people's back will round when doing unweighted squats. If you notice when he puts the bar on his back there is no rounding whatsoever. Also, I suggest you search for a video by Dan John giving a conference in a hotel (by the looks)--you'll have the flexibility necessary in about 5 minutes.


Chicanerous, i've always pondered the hip flexor ordeal. Why would tight hip flexors interfere with the bottom position of the squat? Hamstrings would be a lot more of the issue in the case of low bar squats.

[Kon-El]

While we're on the subject, I'd like to open up the subject of high bar vs low bar squats, as many times as it has been mentioned before. Rippetoe seems to assert that the low bar is safer both on the knees and the back. While others seem to say the high bar is safer on the back but puts more strain on the knees.
Which do you agree with?

Sooner or later I'll finally return to doing squats, but I'll need to be careful with my back and I'll have to pick between high/low bar back squats, front and overhead squats.

And while we're on it, slight 'ass-wink' at the bottom of a squat, bad, or no biggie?

[[RozoN]]

Rozon, the majority of people's back will round when doing unweighted squats. If you notice when he puts the bar on his back there is no rounding whatsoever. Also, I suggest you search for a video by Dan John giving a conference in a hotel (by the looks)--you'll have the flexibility necessary in about 5 minutes.
The problem still occurs when I do them weighted though :sad:.
Thanks for the tip though, I'll try looking the vid up :smile:

And while we're on it, slight 'ass-wink' at the bottom of a squat, bad, or no biggie?
I started getting horrible lower back pains when squatting. Don't know if it's from the "ass-wink", but I didn't find anything else wrong with my squat technique, that could significantly affect my lower back.

Edit: I found the vid. It's awesome :smile:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&hl=en

[chicanerous]

Chicanerous, i've always pondered the hip flexor ordeal. Why would tight hip flexors interfere with the bottom position of the squat? Hamstrings would be a lot more of the issue in the case of low bar squats.
I just like stretching the hip flexors. :good:

Also, as you know, I'm high bar squats all the way, baby.

(And, unlike weak-jointed Honken, my knees have always been right as rain.)

[paulSA]

;1114848']Lately I've discovered that I have excess hip/ass/lower back movement on my squats. Basically I'm failing to keep my lower back straight when going down into my squat. Like this fellow here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8

This causes lower back pain. Trying to keep my back straight only causes me to have a "half squat" or a "shallow squat" which is also shit :eh:.
So there's no way around it, exept stretching my hams and strengthening my lower back.

Strengthening your lower back will not help. Your failing to keep a neutral spine during squats due to a weak Transverse Abdominis. In other words your Core Strength sucks! I would recomend you doing core exercises weekly for about 4 weeks and then try squats again.

Your transverse abdominis presses against the spine when bracing, giving you the neccesary back support to perform squats etc without losing form.

Do you know how to brace?

[chicanerous]

Strengthening your lower back will not help. Your failing to keep a neutral spine during squats due to a weak Transverse Abdominis. In other words your Core Strength sucks! I would recomend you doing core exercises weekly for about 4 weeks and then try squats again.

Your transverse abdominis presses against the spine when bracing, giving you the neccesary back support to perform squats etc without losing form.
That's not necessarily true at all.

[[RozoN]]

Strengthening your lower back will not help. Your failing to keep a neutral spine during squats due to a weak Transverse Abdominis. In other words your Core Strength sucks! I would recomend you doing core exercises weekly for about 4 weeks and then try squats again.

Your transverse abdominis presses against the spine when bracing, giving you the neccesary back support to perform squats etc without losing form.

Do you know how to brace?

If my transverse abdominis was weak, wouldn't that mean that my lowerback would hyper extend (instead of round) on the squats? :eh:

No, I don't know how to brace, I don't even know what that is :sad::dead:

[paulSA]

That's not necessarily true at all.

which part? i was just expressesing an opinion after all


;1114978']If my transverse abdominis was weak, wouldn't that mean that my lowerback would hyper extend (instead of round) on the squats? :eh:

No, I don't know how to brace, I don't even know what that is :sad::dead:

ah, i missunderstood what you meant about rounding, sorry. That is true, you would be more inclined to hyper extend. But im still staying with weak core muscles. Erector spinae.... The core muscles running verticly over your back.

Either way you will still need to brace. So you need to strengthen your transvers abdominis too.

Brace - Lie on the floor with a neutral spine, in other words, lie on your back and put one hand beneath your lower back maintaing a very slight arch. Pull your belly button towards your spine using your abdomen, your body shouldnt move at all, only your abdomen. Now you are holding a Brace. Breath deep breaths while trying to maintain the brace. these are the first steps to strengthening your transverse abdominis and learning to brace.

After all, your core muscles are what stabilise the trunk. Thats their purpose. So strengthen them.

Edit: when squating one is supposed to hold a brace. same with almost all other excercises that involve the trunk needing support.

[-Envy-]

I'd try doing front squats for a while. Since the weight is more in the front, you can sort of "sit back" more which will allow you to get deeper without rounding you back. It can also increase the flexibility required to do back squats and get you used to going deeper in the process.

Front squats also kill your core, so it will help if that is part of your problem as paul suggests.

[DarkXacreD]

I'm not an expert or anything, but that just looks like a hip flexibility issue for the most part.

[DeeJay]

http://www.chinastrategies.com/squats%20clr.jpg

That's a terrible squat.

[-Envy-]

It is pretty bad.

[paulSA]

hahaha, i didnt even bother looking at it before, but it truely is awful

[BrandonLenz]

indeed it is

[Steve]

That reminds me of the time my dad tried to do back squats

[anfeyd]

PaulSA please stop giving advice in this thread. I will give my opinions on this matter more in depth tomorrow.

[paulSA]

PaulSA please stop giving advice in this thread. I will give my opinions on this matter more in depth tomorrow.

oh forgive me all knowing anfeyd :cool:
but telling people to strengthen their core has never been bad advice.

[DeeJay]

"Strengthens your core" - late night infomercials

[-Envy-]

"I lost 10 inches off my waist in under a month! And the workout only took 2 minutes with the ab ________!!"

[paulSA]

''lost 55 kilo's using the ********** once a day'' LOL

[Konnar]

Don't forget promises to get permanent orgasms

[anfeyd]

which part? i was just expressesing an opinion after all




ah, i missunderstood what you meant about rounding, sorry. That is true, you would be more inclined to hyper extend. But im still staying with weak core muscles. Erector spinae.... The core muscles running verticly over your back.

Either way you will still need to brace. So you need to strengthen your transvers abdominis too.

Brace - Lie on the floor with a neutral spine, in other words, lie on your back and put one hand beneath your lower back maintaing a very slight arch. Pull your belly button towards your spine using your abdomen, your body shouldnt move at all, only your abdomen. Now you are holding a Brace. Breath deep breaths while trying to maintain the brace. these are the first steps to strengthening your transverse abdominis and learning to brace.

After all, your core muscles are what stabilise the trunk. Thats their purpose. So strengthen them.

Edit: when squating one is supposed to hold a brace. same with almost all other excercises that involve the trunk needing support.


Bracing your abdominals does not involve 'pulling your belly button towards your spine'. There is no need to do what you describe during any exercise (outside of a vacuum).

[anfeyd]

oh forgive me all knowing anfeyd :cool:
but telling people to strengthen their core has never been bad advice.

It is whenever you tell someone to abandon the back squat completely for a month and work on your 'core' instead.

[anfeyd]

While we're on the subject, I'd like to open up the subject of high bar vs low bar squats, as many times as it has been mentioned before. Rippetoe seems to assert that the low bar is safer both on the knees and the back. While others seem to say the high bar is safer on the back but puts more strain on the knees.
Which do you agree with?

Sooner or later I'll finally return to doing squats, but I'll need to be careful with my back and I'll have to pick between high/low bar back squats, front and overhead squats.

And while we're on it, slight 'ass-wink' at the bottom of a squat, bad, or no biggie?


I'd just start with low bar back squats and see how they feel, I wouldn't worry about front or overhead squats at all. Butt wink is nothing to concern yourself with.

[Kon-El]

Bracing your abdominals does not involve 'pulling your belly button towards your spine'. There is no need to do what you describe during any exercise (outside of a vacuum).

What I have found is that the pulling your belly button in thing is just how to teach beginners the concept. Once you've done it just a few times you'll learn to voluntarily engage those muscles without thinking about pulling in your navel.

Then again maybe that's still not your definition of bracing your core, although this was taught to me by a pretty good physio; in which case, what do you mean by bracing?

I'd just start with low bar back squats and see how they feel, I wouldn't worry about front or overhead squats at all. Butt wink is nothing to concern yourself with.

Thanks for your opinion.

[anfeyd]

What I have found is that the pulling your belly button in thing is just how to teach beginners the concept. Once you've done it just a few times you'll learn to voluntarily engage those muscles without thinking about pulling in your navel.

Then again maybe that's still not your definition of bracing your core, although this was taught to me by a pretty good physio; in which case, what do you mean by bracing?

I'm talking about the more effective way to increase your intra-abdominal pressure (therefore protecting your lower back better). "Bracing" the way i'm referring it to is taking a breath in and the best way to describe it would be to 'prepare to take a punch'. You sort of push your belly button out a little if anything.

Your physio must be a typical physio who has no experience with weight training or athletes.

[-Envy-]

I don't know about you guys, but when I squat, my belly puffs out like crazy. You don't want to be trying to support a heavy barbell on your shoulders with a sucked in toothpick waist. A wider base provides better stability.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

;1114848']Lately I've discovered that I have excess hip/ass/lower back movement on my squats. Basically I'm failing to keep my lower back straight when going down into my squat.Sounds like Butt wink,it's nothing major to worry about,if it is butt wink. I fixed my butt wink by doing good-morning esque stretches with a rigid back & the knees unlocked or locked(try both) whilst really focusing on pushing the hips back as you lower your torso. Also,think about "pushing the knees out" when you squat,that helped me too. Assuming this is butt wink & not a total rounding of any part of the back.

[BrandonLenz]

"I lost 10 inches off my waist in under a month! And the workout only took 2 minutes with the ab ________!!"

if my waist went down by 10 inches i would be invisable.

[Kon-El]

I'm talking about the more effective way to increase your intra-abdominal pressure (therefore protecting your lower back better). "Bracing" the way i'm referring it to is taking a breath in and the best way to describe it would be to 'prepare to take a punch'. You sort of push your belly button out a little if anything.

Your physio must be a typical physio who has no experience with weight training or athletes.
Interesting, although the only difference (for me) between doing what you said and the other way is that my rectus is flexed more with your method.

And though it's impossible to say who's a good physio and who's not, he's actually pretty decent. He's the phsysio for a snowboarding team and in a way he got me into doing squats and deadlifts (he's not the quater-squat on a bosu-ball type).

[paulSA]

like i said earlier, the 'pulling your belly button in' concept is just the first step to learning how to brace properly. as you would have noticed the OP has no concept of bracing. Bracing is compacting muscle around your spine for support using the transverse abdominis. Im sorry but if your b button is going forward that is not bracing.

[DeeJay]

So gentlemen, what is the correct technique I should be using for my abdominals when I squat and deadlift? No terms like brace please, I need to know what to do exactly.

[-Envy-]

The Valsalva maneuver is the correct technique. Basically, you fill your lungs with air before the lift, and try to exhale against your closed airway. Don't actually let any air out until you get to the top of the lift, though. This builds up pressure in the torso, and protects the spine. If you do this correctly, then your stomach will usually stick out more than usual.

[Kon-El]

I've read about the usefulness of the maneuver in gaining strength, but it would seem like it may be dangerous if used too frequently (ie say on every rep of a set of 5). Also it doesn't seem to match anfeyd's analogy to taking a punch. when im about to take a punch by core tenses up but my navel definitely goes inward. I think there's no question as to whether or not engaging the transverse sucks in the navel, but simply, what is the best practice for standard weightlifting. I think I might email some of them famous coaches online and see if anyone has a good answer.

[paulSA]

I've read about the usefulness of the maneuver in gaining strength, but it would seem like it may be dangerous if used too frequently (ie say on every rep of a set of 5). Also it doesn't seem to match anfeyd's analogy to taking a punch. when im about to take a punch by core tenses up but my navel definitely goes inward. I think there's no question as to whether or not engaging the transverse sucks in the navel, but simply, what is the best practice for standard weightlifting. I think I might email some of them famous coaches online and see if anyone has a good answer.

the majority of people who read these threads are not professional athletes or even people with a long history in weight training/lifting. thus i would advise more traditional methods like bracing, as i would hate to mess around with a persons breathing especially if they arnt 100% sure of what they are doing. holding your breath during the consentric phase of an excercise is not safe.

(please ignore my spelling, i know its terrible)

[Kon-El]

i'm thinking more along the lines of increased blood pressure every time it is performed, this is well documented. It is clearly safe to an extent in the young and healthy, it just seems problematic to be used before every rep of every heavy exercise.

Good thing I'm just doing pistols these days. =P

[paulSA]

i'm thinking more along the lines of increased blood pressure every time it is performed, this is well documented. It is clearly safe to an extent in the young and healthy, it just seems problematic to be used before every rep of every heavy exercise.

Good thing I'm just doing pistols these days. =P

true. howcome you're just doing pistols?

[Kon-El]

Back injury. Been a year now actually. I do other stuff like super light deadlifts and good mornings with high-ass reps.

[paulSA]

that sucks. do you still have pain when lifting? i just recovered from one myself. so glad to be able to squat and dlift again

[The Laughing Man]

So you guys don't hold your breath when you squat?

[paulSA]

So you guys don't hold your breath when you squat?

i don't no. i just brace...works for me

[Phil D]

holding your breath during squats = good, it keeps your thoracic pressure high thus making you core more stable

[Kon-El]

I do from when i inhale to about a quarter or half way up the ascent at which point i'll blow it out, snake hiss style. sometimes i count out loud but rarely on squats.

ya i can tell anything over 40 kilos or so will hurt, the last time i wanted to check and see, i just rehurt myself, so I'm going to wait until there isn't even any discomfort, or until I can't stand to wait anymore.

[anfeyd]

the majority of people who read these threads are not professional athletes or even people with a long history in weight training/lifting. thus i would advise more traditional methods like bracing, as i would hate to mess around with a persons breathing especially if they arnt 100% sure of what they are doing. holding your breath during the consentric phase of an excercise is not safe.

(please ignore my spelling, i know its terrible)

You don't have to be an athlete for the valsalva maneuver to be effective. Your blood vessels adapt to using this and death while using this method is statistically nonexistent.

Tell me why holding your breath is not the safe, natural thing to do.

[paulSA]

You don't have to be an athlete for the valsalva maneuver to be effective. Your blood vessels adapt to using this and death while using this method is statistically nonexistent.

Tell me why holding your breath is not the safe, natural thing to do.

yes but you still have to know how to do it correctly. alot of people say that breathing out on the lift itself puts all the strain on your lower back but this would not be the case if one is bracing correctly.

yes, some peoples bodies do adapt but prolonged use of the valsalva method (incorrect technique) can lead to disorders including retinal disfunction due to the immense build up of pressure in the eyes while holding your breath and squating. but once again, this comes from incorrect use. im not saying the actual manoever is unsafe, as that would be stupid when regarding that many pro lifters use it, but the ignorance of the amateur lifter can lead to injury.

Hence why i still recomend what i learnt in Cert 4 Fitness, the brace. If you know how to use the valsalva correctly, go for it. But if your not lifting a great amount of weight, it shouldnt be neccesary.

[anfeyd]

yes, some peoples bodies do adapt but prolonged use of the valsalva method

No, everyone does, not just some people.

can lead to disorders including retinal disfunction due to the immense build up of pressure in the eyes while holding your breath and squating.

Show me any kind of literature showing this.

as that would be stupid when regarding that many pro lifters use it, but the ignorance of the amateur lifter can lead to injury.

Hey guys I held my breath and pulled my hamstring?

Hence why i still recomend what i learnt in Cert 4 Fitness, the brace. If you know how to use the valsalva correctly, go for it. But if your not lifting a great amount of weight, it shouldnt be neccesary.

I'm not talking about cert 4 fitness, i'm talking about lifting heavy weights. Obviously your shitty class is going to advise against it because the mainstream fitness world are idiots. What is so hard about using the valsalva maneuver? People use it unknowingly daily probably.

I'm sorry, continue using your pink dumbbells so you don't have to worry about too much weight being lifted.

[The Laughing Man]

What is this 'incorrect way' of performing the valsalva maneuver you speak of??? It's pretty damn simple really...

Unless you have some pre-existing medical problems, the valsalva maneuver is not dangerous.

[[RozoN]]

PaulSA, read this:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/Romkul/breathing.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/Romkul/breathing2.jpg

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

i don't no. i just brace...works for me
lol,are you bracing in your avatar?

& good one on the SS E-book,Rozon. I have it too.

[chicanerous]

So you guys don't hold your breath when you squat?
Of course I hold it. I brace as well, which does not involve pulling my belly button "in" in the slightest.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

EYE HOLD ET 2.

[paulSA]

I'm sorry, continue using your pink dumbbells so you don't have to worry about too much weight being lifted.

insulting people in a debate is a sign of weakness. i pity you.

[paulSA]

lol,are you bracing in your avatar?

& good one on the SS E-book,Rozon. I have it too.

haha, cant remember, think so. its almost a year ago...

[-Envy-]

Showing pity is a sign of weakness.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

I would agree,but agreeing is also a sign of weakness.


Wait...I am weak.

[Ashtar]

When you engage the core, the TA does pull the belly button towards the spine. It just can't ever get there because your abs are tensed and in the fucking way. When yogis suck their guts in they stretch and relax the abs so they don't get in the way.

[-Envy-]

Being weak is a sign of weakness.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Also,I don't doubt that Anfeyd is more knowledgeable than you in the field of physical theory,strength training techniques blah blah,he can afford to correct you,make a joke & show "signs of weakness",Paul.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Being weak is a sign of weakness.
:shocked:

O RLY?

[[RozoN]]

Today I've had another lifting session. I've tried tweaking my technique on the back squats, but I still get the sharp pain in my back.
So I gave box squats and front squats a shot. Doing box squats had no effect. I felt like I wasn't working anything at all. I liked front squats though. You squat in a much more upright position (which I really liked) and I've actually felt that I was working my lower back (not the sharp pain, that I got on back squats, but warm, tired feeling, like DL). The only drawback, is that I didn't feel that my hams were being worked at all. I mostly felt it in my thights and calfs. Is that normal? :eh:. I have say that I didn't go that heavy on the front squat today either, since it was a new excersise for me.
I've just decided to replace my back squat with front squat. That way I get to strengthen my lower back and work on my flexibility and re read squat chapter in SS and what not :smile:

[-Envy-]

Make sure you're going deep when you do the front squats. The ultimate goal is to use them to get used to going deep while keeping your back straight, and then apply it to your back squats once your flex and technique are better.

[anfeyd]

;1117062']Today I've had another lifting session. I've tried tweaking my technique on the back squats, but I still get the sharp pain in my back.
So I gave box squats and front squats a shot. Doing box squats had no effect. I felt like I wasn't working anything at all. I liked front squats though. You squat in a much more upright position (which I really liked) and I've actually felt that I was working my lower back (not the sharp pain, that I got on back squats, but warm, tired feeling, like DL). The only drawback, is that I didn't feel that my hams were being worked at all. I mostly felt it in my thights and calfs. Is that normal? :eh:. I have say that I didn't go that heavy on the front squat today either, since it was a new excersise for me.
I've just decided to replace my back squat with front squat. That way I get to strengthen my lower back and work on my flexibility and re read squat chapter in SS and what not :smile:

The front squat has next to no hamstring activation due to the inherent forward knee position that has to happen in order for the bar to stay in balance. Yes, you are correct except the glutes also take a lot of the load.


Front squats will not help you strengthen your lower back that much due to the upright position.



And Paul, i'm not insulting you. You said it yourself, your technique is fine for those who aren't moving a lot of weight (even though it isn't). Considering you use this technique, you must not be moving a lot of weight. A pink dumbbell is not a lot of weight, therefore, you can possibly be moving the pink dumbbell.

[Kon-El]

i'm sold on the valsalva maneuvre, my final question is simply, should i really be breathing out hard while keeping my mouth closed (i take this is how you keep glottis closed) or do i simply hold in my breath and actively sqeeze my core tight (which is what i have always done)?
thanks to all.

[-Envy-]

I couldn't imagine not using the valsalva maneuver on squats and deadlifts. I've used it forever just instictually before I ever even read anything about it. I'm pretty sure it's hardwired in the brain for a reason. Probably sometime 100,000 years ago at a prehistoric powerlifting competition, all the guys that didn't hold their breath on squats got crushed and were weeded out of the gene pool.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

[chicanerous]

i'm sold on the valsalva maneuvre, my final question is simply, should i really be breathing out hard while keeping my mouth closed (i take this is how you keep glottis closed) or do i simply hold in my breath and actively sqeeze my core tight (which is what i have always done)?
thanks to all.
Breathing out hard with the mouth closed is a bit of a misleading cue because it implies that, perhaps, your cheeks are filled with air, which they are not. It's more like the air stops at the throat (i.e. with the closed glottis), which you can more or less do with mouth open or closed. You probably understand correctly though, as, as Envy mentions, it's a pretty intuitive concept.

[tdmonster]

insulting people in a debate is a sign of weakness. i pity you.

Coming from someone who weighs less than me.... :smile:

[The Laughing Man]

I think I'd squat 20kgs less if I didn't have a breath LOL

[Kon-El]

well now that that's clear I just thought I'd also mention that the transverse abdominus engaging through the whole navel thing has its uses too. back when my injury was at a point where the pain and discomfort were nearly always present even while just standing and walking, engaging my core in this manner made me feel less pain and more spinal stability. It also seems useful during simpler unweighted exercises like planks, birddogs, and even reverse crunches/dragonflags (which i can now do :D ) .

this is, at least, my experience with it.

[paulSA]

Coming from someone who weighs less than me.... :smile:

you must be pretty mus or pretty fat then, as i weigh 86kgs, or 190lbs...

my avatar is old. dont be mislead

[chicanerous]

my avatar is old. dont be mislead

Me too.

[Kon-El]

I'm three-dimensional now.

[paulSA]

Me too.

hahaha

[The Laughing Man]

you must be pretty mus or pretty fat then, as i weigh 86kgs, or 190lbs...

my avatar is old. dont be mislead

I'm 86kg, it's not very big lol.

But, chances are that guy is pretty fat :tongue:

[paulSA]

I'm 86kg, it's not very big lol.

But, chances are that guy is pretty fat :tongue:

its not very big no, but for a 16 year old above that would be extreme mus....or just way too many choc brownies.....

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

TDMilkstar isn't fat.