View Full Version : Wrapthru-Wrapthrough-W/T Discussion.
Wrapthru-Wrapthrough-W/T
After viewing BobReturns' thread about w/t fulls and reading all of the posts in it, I feel as if this is a topic that needs a legitimate discussion. Here are my views on the subject. Feel free to correct/question/discuss anything you disagree with or are unsure about.
Wrapthru is not a trick!
Wrapthru is a transition into a trick. Not a trick itself. It is much like how swingthrough (S/T) defines the transition between a butterfly twist and a gainer. The reason I bring this up is because I feel like a lot of people immediately associate wrapthru with a fulltwist. Wrapthrus can be done for many other tricks too! :wink:
What is a Wrapthru?
Like I said before, wrapthru is a transition between two tricks. It is much like a misleg or swingthrough in that only one foot touches the ground. As the first leg touches the ground, the second leg pulls back behind the first without touching the ground and then UPWARDS (helps for lift).
Example: Cartwheel_W/T Fulltwist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoDttmsxZSM
*Pay Attention to the LEFT leg*
Wrapthru VS Carrythru
The motion of the leg. In a wrapthru, the leg pulls behind and UP. In a carrythru, it is more of an around motion. This is why carrythru is used to describe the link between kicks. (i.e. hook_carrythrough (C/T) 720)
Wrapthru VS Misleg
This is mainly referring to kicks. I don't believe that a 540_MSL 900 and a 540_W/T 900 are the same trick. There is a subtle difference in the two regarding the motion of the non-touching leg. In a misleg, the non-touching leg stays up in a chambered position. In a wrathru, it pulls back behind in the nature of the wrapthru transition.
What Can You Wrapthru Into?
This is a subject that I believe is causing a bit of controversy. Some people say that you can only wrapthru into an inverted trick. Based on the definition of a wrapthru, however, I would have to disagree. I believe that you CAN wrapthru into kicks and other techniques that do not have a level of inversion. Whether or not what you do is actually a wrapthru instead of a carrythru or misleg is the real question.
Example: Aerial_W/T Dleg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdaSoumnocY
*Dlegs are kicks*
That is all I can think of for now. Discuss!!! :wicked:
EDIT:
the only thing i disagree with is the w/t dleg...it's more of a w/t full dleg....
Ahh. this opens up a very interesting idea. What would be the difference between the two? I am still convinced that mine is in fact a W/T Dleg based on how I performed it in this situation.
And this brings up another idea. What would be the difference between a W/T Dleg and a C/T Parafuso?
Example: My Aerial_W/T Dleg VS Mogwai's C7_C/T Parafuso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7RFmaD3-PY
Ooh. Looking pretty similar, huh?
so this is what you've been up to....interesting...
*reads*
::edit::
after reading i do agree with you on most of this...
the only thing i disagree with is the w/t dleg...it's more of a w/t full dleg....
if you want i'll try and film a w/t 9 for you
Augenatic
Nov-17-08, 12:16 PM
Fuuck, nice aerial w/t d-leg! I don't really believe in full d-legs, unless one does a "real" full and pops out into a d-leg - most "full d-legs" atm don't even go past horizontal :agony:
Andy R
Nov-17-08, 12:20 PM
wrap thru webster!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkjEMAONz0
Skilzat85X
Nov-17-08, 01:04 PM
This can be this weeks tricking discussion haha.
Thank you Cory! :wink: What a well thought out and well formatted post.
just you wait skilzat...we are planning something big...lol
Dragonic MiKe
Nov-17-08, 01:29 PM
Something big from Cory and Rudy! YAY! :smile:
it's another thread, lol...we had a rather long phone conversation and now we are unsure about something
Dragonic MiKe
Nov-17-08, 01:31 PM
I'm so intrigued I think my head might burst!
OpenxEyedxBeast
Nov-17-08, 01:57 PM
My question is, do Misslegs pull in the reverse direction? Like for ex. Tornado_msl_Btwist. Your leg has to pull up and back for you to go into the Btwist. And wouldn't the W/T be a combination between the carrythru and missleg???
a tornado_"msl"_btwist is in fact a tornado>flagella b-twist.
Skilzat85X
Nov-17-08, 02:04 PM
just you wait skilzat...we are planning something big...lol
:smile: <33
Dragonic MiKe
Nov-17-08, 02:08 PM
Flagella is a funny name.
**bump due to importance**
I tried these today for the first time.
They didn't feel anything like a cart - full. They felt extremely flip-ish. Like I was just kinda flopping over haha.
Maybe I did it wrong haha.
I landed on my knees every time. :agony:
To tackle your last question..
Mogwai reaches up with one leg, then the second leg comes up to meet it, similar to parafusos.
But your legs are close the full extent of the move, similar to double legs.
no jon...that's how the feel the first few times, lol
To tackle your last question..
Mogwai reaches up with one leg, then the second leg comes up to meet it, similar to parafusos.
But your legs are close the full extent of the move, similar to double legs.
Ahhh. Well then I pose this argument. Can his be considered a wrapthru parafuso? Its motion is behind and back up like a wrapthru...
hmm....
no jon...that's how the feel the first few times, lol
And it feels that way for every new trick you do it out of (for me at least). Cart_w/t full had an awkward feel.
Then Aerial_w/t full had the same awkward feel to it.
Now Gainer_w/t full has an awkward feel to it.
It's just weird. haha.
Ambitrixterous
Nov-17-08, 06:05 PM
Wrapthru VS Carrythru
The motion of the leg. In a wrapthru, the leg pulls behind and UP. In a carrythru, it is more of an around motion. This is why carrythru is used to describe the link between kicks. (i.e. hook_carrythrough (C/T) 720)
Wrapthru VS Misleg
This is mainly referring to kicks. I don't believe that a 540_MSL 900 and a 540_W/T 900 are the same trick. There is a subtle difference in the two regarding the motion of the non-touching leg. In a misleg, the non-touching leg stays up in a chambered position. In a wrathru, it pulls back behind in the nature of the wrapthru transition.
*Dlegs are kicks*
What would be the difference between the two? I am still convinced that mine is in fact a W/T Dleg based on how I performed it in this situation.
And this brings up another idea. What would be the difference between a W/T Dleg and a C/T Parafuso?
A very well thought-out and intricate post, Cory! :good: here's what I believe is missing:
About doublelegs:
Doubleleg CAN be a kick, it isn't necessarily a kick! To clarify, think of what a doubleleg is made of. Both legs are present, but only one could have the other missing and still look the same- the 'hyper round kick.' Think about a parafuso; here is a cheated trick which adds an otherwise tucked second leg to the 540 kick- a hypered round kick landing. This is what makes a doubleleg a variation of a hyper round! Now, what makes it a kick? The same thing that makes everything else a kick- the fact that you remain vertical throughout the duration of the move. From this we can gather that a doubleleg (the kick) is made of a 360kick and a "pop540kick," just where both kicks are present throughout. In the example of your clip, we see you turn horizontal about halfway through and end up flipping it over (which we would not see in a "pop540 kick," making your example the standard doubleleg which originated from Capoeira. Now, about doubleleg-ging out of things...
About "cork" or "full" doubleleg:
We have all seen this move or could pick it out of a lineup of cork variations, but what defines this move? From the above information, we should be aware that there are in fact TWO of them! (not a cork and a full dleg, but 2 of whatever title you use!) The same way that a corkswipe and a hyper cork round are different, you can utilize either form of a doubleleg out of a cork doubleleg. The difference being whether you right yourself for the dleg part like the kick, or dleg out from your horizontal twist like the standard dleg flip. Whichever you perform, both include the "cork" or "full" part; an entry which resembles a cork or full start but lends you to perform the dleg starting from the opposite side to finish like a normal doubleleg. What does this mean?
This means that if you wrapthru as you do in wrapthru full and doubleleg out (even if you right yourself as you doubleleg) if you started sideways you have in fact performed a "cork" or "full" doubleleg. What that DOESN'T mean is that you cannot wrapthru dleg kick! (If a double negative pisses you off as much as me, it means YOU CAN WRAPTHRU DLEG KICK or other vert kick!)
About Wrapthru as a transition
Cory you've done a good job physically describing what a wrapthru looks like, but what's happening is another story and in fact re-defines the lines you've drawn for the other transitions. Here's why:
*carrythru and wrapthru are offshoots or cousins of the big transition: swingthru!
A swingthru is what's called a 'mobile transition.' This means that for a swingthru to happen, there is movement of the 'swing' leg while the performer is on the ground. In the example of a Btwist swingthru gainer flash, the Btwist is landed with the swing leg behind the performer. While the performer is on the ground, the swing leg moves, from behind the performer to in line with the other leg, and then continues until it is in front of the performer, effectively re-creating the motion of a gainer takeoff. After this the performer jumps into the air, leaving the ground to perform the flashkick. This is why a swingthru can happen from forward to forward tricks such as multiple fronts/websters or backward to backward tricks like multiple gainer switch. Swingthru can even happen on consecutive sideflips such as multiple GMS!
To notice the difference between a swingthru and a carrythrough, note the change in angles taken by the performer. If a performer hits a trick which does not fit on the same track as the previous trick (interrupted momentum) this is known as a carrythru. This angular change takes place before the second trick begins at all (in contrast to the swingthru which begins the second trick instantly at the end of the first) and makes this transition unique. Most carrythrus are failed swingthrus, however some are correctly applied to tricks which do not necessarily fit with swingthrus (such as non-hypered kicks and gainers from hypered position.)
If a swingthru is mobile and a carrythru is an angular change on a swingthru, then a wrapthru is a mobile swingthru which does not exist on a straight line (in other words a 180 degree angular change which happens simultaneously like a normal swingthru.) An easier way to consider this is a swingthru which happens almost 'in orbit' around the performer's body rather than a straight kick in any direction. All 3 of these are in contrast to the above mentioned stationary transition "missleg"
About Missleg as a transition
Missleg is a 'stationary' transition, which means that although the 'missed' leg may in fact move somewhat the performer remains overall in the same place. In reference to kicks in transition, both swingthrus and misslegs are present, but a side change is absent while grounded for misslegs. For example, If I perform any true hypered hook kick, I can missleg into a second kick which will begin from the same position I just landed in (standard pop, as in pop7.) If I land that same true hypered hook kick and my other leg wraps inward pulling me into backside stance, I have performed a wrapthru and can now perform any backsided kick (BS7). Have you ever noticed how some people can 540kick and go into a 9 with no trouble, while others find that to be the hardest combo on earth? That is because some are performing 540kick WRAPTHRU 9 (4th clip in Rasmus Ott's "Ottfather") and others are trying to do an extra half spin to perform a backside9 from one leg (basically standing!)
There is a whole world to transitions between vert kicks... including wrapthrus, swingthrus, and misslegs... but that is a story for another day.....:beer::beer:
breykdown
Nov-17-08, 06:16 PM
^entirely too much information for me to process at one time, im gonna have to read again later
oh my god dan..... thanks for clearing that up... but holy shit did you right a lot!!!
i'm going to have to read this later so different parts settle in at a time, lol
^entirely too much information for me to process at one time, im gonna have to read again later
basically this, lol
thanks again dan
OMFG, Dan! You freaking raped my thread!
I am so glad that you are active on this forum because you have such a vast amount of knowledge. Thank You.
Ambitrixterous
Nov-17-08, 06:30 PM
^entirely too much information for me to process at one time, im gonna have to read again later
oh my god dan..... thanks for clearing that up... but holy shit did you right a lot!!!
i'm going to have to read this later so different parts settle in at a time, lol
Haha fair enough guys, let me know afterwards if you'd like me to clarify on any of that
OMFG, Dan! You freaking raped my thread!
I am so glad that you are active on this forum because you have such a vast amount of knowledge. Thank You.
Na man, thank YOU because it is people like yourself and everyone in all of these threads who take the time to consider the nature of the tricks they're performing which help others to understand better and ultimately help the sport move along through insightful reasoning. :good::beer:
Dragonic MiKe
Nov-17-08, 07:50 PM
Excellent stuff as always, Dan. I'm much more clear about all this now but I could do with clarification on a few things.
Wrapthrus always seem to be performed from a 'pop' position, but from your post I gather that wrapthru from a 'backside' position is also possible. If this is true, don't we need to denote whether or not the wrap is from pop or backside?
Also, in the case of Ott's 540 wrapthru 900 he seems to wrap into the '900' from a one footed pop stance, spin 360 and throw a round kick. That's 180 degrees less than a backside 900! Surely it's a wrapthru Tornado Kick, {w/t 360 round}?
From your post I also gather that swingthru and carrythru apply regardless of the direction of travel of the swing/carry leg in relation to the other leg (Gainer switch s/t gainer - Webster Switch s/t Webster). Does this also apply to wrapthrus and if so wouldn't it require a different name?
Does 'stepover' enter the equation?
Haha, I cant wait til all your Aeriform stuff is online. :tongue:
Ambitrixterous
Nov-17-08, 09:21 PM
Excellent stuff as always, Dan. I'm much more clear about all this now but I could do with clarification on a few things.
Wrapthrus always seem to be performed from a 'pop' position, but from your post I gather that wrapthru from a 'backside' position is also possible. If this is true, don't we need to denote whether or not the wrap is from pop or backside?
Also, in the case of Ott's 540 wrapthru 900 he seems to wrap into the '900' from a one footed pop stance, spin 360 and throw a round kick. That's 180 degrees less than a backside 900! Surely it's a wrapthru Tornado Kick, {w/t 360 round}?
From your post I also gather that swingthru and carrythru apply regardless of the direction of travel of the swing/carry leg in relation to the other leg (Gainer switch s/t gainer - Webster Switch s/t Webster). Does this also apply to wrapthrus and if so wouldn't it require a different name?
Does 'stepover' enter the equation?
Haha, I cant wait til all your Aeriform stuff is online. :tongue:
Ahhh you and me both, brother! Haha but I'm close on much of it. So let's go through like this:
Ott's example (and all 540kick wrapthru9): you are correct, the wrapthru 9 is indeed 360 in air. This is because when you wrap through from a backside landing (as in a 540kick) you will wrap FROM backside TO standard, leaving the second kick being perfromed as though it were a standard pop kick (w/t 9 is equal to in air spin of pop tornado.) To isolate the second kick itself as a "wrap9" you would start backside, wrap to standard, and do a 360 plus non-hypered round kick. In TKT this kick is {wrap 540round} rather than wrap9, because you start with a regular 540 round (backside9), wrap 180 degrees before takeoff and you're left with 360round. The rest is all tied in to transitional kicking
Wrapthru vs Swingthru in vert kicks (in application to Backside & Standard pop stance)
Now, in order to keep this all straight remember that there are only 2 stances, and that under a mobile transition you start in one but move to the other before actual takeoff. Between 2 vert kicks you can either SWINGTHRU or WRAPTHRU, from either backside or standard pop stance depending on how the first kick is performed! Specifically, the landing of the first kick will designate the transition available to you.
Wrapthru:
Land a regular hook or round (non-hypered) and bring the kicking leg in to transition to the next. This means you have "wrapp-ed through" to the second kick. Keep in mind that landing with a regular hook would be the standard wrapthru kick everyone can identify, and that the round would be the way to wrap into backside (which many people confuse for swingthru). A good example of this is Prodigy's tornado to 9, he is in fact performing a wrapthru transition to 9! (540 spin vs swingthru9's 360, this is where standard terminology breaks down entirely :eh:)
Swingthru:
This one is more complicated due to the fact that a hyper kick brings both legs down and either leg can be chosen to be the actual landing leg when using a transition. If you land specifically ON the kicking leg (as in 'true hyper'), you will leave the other leg out as though it were a non-hypered kick and your transition becomes once again wrapthru. If you perform the same hyper kick (bringing the kick back for the extra 180 spin) and land on the NON-kicking leg (as in 'hyper style') and bring the other leg in to transition you have "swUng through" to your second kick. A 'hyper style' tornado should have you still land in backside stance but not on your kicking leg so that you can effectively perform a REAL swingthru kick (as in stepover hook, swingthru9, swingthru10, etc).
In order to keep the definition of each transition consistent, they must apply regardless of direction so that a swingthru kick is the same regardless of direction as well as a wrapthru. The kicks by themselves however, do have different names to designate the order when moving from one stance to another as any kick that can be performed in transition can also be performed on its own!
we are just sucking all of the information out of DP that we can, lol
<3
remthetreme
Nov-17-08, 09:51 PM
aerial w/t narabong :tongue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6mbt0Ut_0
1min03
Dragonic MiKe
Nov-17-08, 10:26 PM
Damn.
Thanks for explaining that stuff for me, Dan. :smile:
TKT is going to come into its own when more people start to understand/utilise these kind of movements.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.