GMT (Grand Master Twist) Discussion Thread

[Cory]

Grand Master Twist [GMT]

Rudy and I have been talking about this for a little while now and we believe this is something that really needs some clarification. For that clarification, we need a discussion because I am convinced that there is no true answer to this...yet.

What Defines a GMT?
This is the issue...What truly makes a GMT a GMT?

Looking at Prerequisites
The prerequisite for a GMT is a GMS (Grand Masterswipe). In a GMS, the first leg passes in front of the take-off leg and pulls up. After the jump, the jumping leg pulls past the leading leg and becomes the landing leg. The main thing I want to point out in this is the switching of the legs...

Another Look at GMT with Prerequisites in Mind
In most cases, a prerequisite is the foundation. Variations are then built upon those prerequisites. As I noted, in the GMS, a switch occurs between the two legs. Therefore, shouldn't there be a switch in the GMT?

This is where Rudy and I have found a problem. Is the switch necessary for it to be considered a GMT? Or can the leg simply pass in front followed by a contorted twist in the opposite direction?


Example of No Switch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-1v7Sm_bc

Example of Switch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUG1crvnM0Y

As you can see, there is a very distinct difference between the two and definitely a whole new level of difficulty.

The Question:
What do we do about this? Should one of them be given a different name? Which one deserves a name change? Should the switched version be upgraded to a GMS Twist or another name that is well-suited for it? Should the non-switched version be downgraded for its lack of the foundation of its prerequisite?


I am convinced that these two are not the same trick, but rather two different tricks.

DISCUSS!!!

[SeanS]

i actually agree with you on this but never thought of it, going with what you have presented i would say the fisrt example would have to be changed.

i would call the first more of a harder w/t whilst the second being definitely related to a gms.

[Rudy]

I am also convinced they are not the same trick [one is severely harder to do]
if you look at the first clip there is no switch...this is no longer a grandmaster swipe twist [it's just a twist]. The second clip actually has a swipe["flash"] in it, like these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3znis4zU6U

As you can clearly see my swiping leg passes in front before the twist. This to me is how a Grand Master Twist should be done. If no, it should be a different trick, a Grand Master Swipe Twist...

[Dragonic MiKe]

As you can clearly see my swiping leg passes in front before the twist. This to me is how a Grand Master Twist should be done. If no, it should be a different trick, a Grand Master Swipe Twist...

This is PRECISELY what I have been thinking recently (right down to the terminology).

I think you are most definitely right.

GMT and GMST - Two different tricks.

I <3 you guys.

[Alexx]

man that must be shit hard to keep sideways on too !

[frankinstine]

I can grandmasterswipe dub twist.

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

This might be slightly off topic but, what is the relation between the GMT/GMST and the Grandmaster Snapuswipe. What is the Grandmaster Snapuswipe anyways?

[Skilzat85X]

To be honest I don't think they're different enough to change the technical value even if one is harder, it's similar to the difference between a heavily delayed A-Twist and a regularly delayed A-Twist, IMO.

[rocketbaz]

but hey... this is a little to much imo... if someone does this combo for example: hook-cart-gms twist-flash
are you seriously going to say "NO IT WASN'T A SWIPE IT WAS ONLY A TWIST" ?

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

My thoughts exactly, Skilz.

[Rudy]

To be honest I don't think they're different enough to change the technical value even if one is harder, it's similar to the difference between a heavily delayed A-Twist and a regularly delayed A-Twist, IMO.

similar but no...there is no extra part in a delayed atwist and a non delayed atwist...in a gms twist there is the swipe and in a gmt there is the twist...there is an extra part, the swipe

[Andy R]

To be honest I don't think they're different enough to change the technical value even if one is harder, it's similar to the difference between a heavily delayed A-Twist and a regularly delayed A-Twist, IMO.

hmmm. i think its more like comparing a kick full to a full.

[Rudy]

hmmm. i think its more like comparing a kick full to a full.

THIS THIS THIS!!!!

[Skilzat85X]

similar but no...there is no extra part in a delayed atwist and a non delayed atwist...in a gms twist there is the swipe and in a gmt there is the twist...there is an extra part, the swipe
Ahh yes, I can understand this very well. Perhaps I'm inclined to agree with you now. :wink:

[Cory]

Besides, it's the subtleties of tricks that differentiate them. I'd consider the switch in this trick to be more important than how inverted a move is, but we differentiate between a cork and a gainer full.

[Ambitrixterous]

This might be slightly off topic but, what is the relation between the GMT/GMST and the Grandmaster Snapuswipe. What is the Grandmaster Snapuswipe anyways?

Bam nailed it. The "swipe" is indeed the part Sessh was referring to in Grand Master Snapuswipe! What makes this move what it is is its relation to the technical specs of the GMS- not the switch, but the flip being performed! Let's look at the nature of the move itself, which begins with a cartwheel:

"Tricker/Karate" Cartwheel
-side to side movement, like sideflip. Performer's chest & hips face the same direction throughout this movement.

Masterswipe:
-sideways kick up (gainer takeoff) into "tricker" cw. 'Kicking' leg crosses performer's body to perform this action.

Grand Master Swipe:
-same takeoff into "tricker" aerial. Sideflip action is now fully visible even though aerial form is present.

Grand Master Twist
-same takeoff into sideflip, plus twist to natural side (e.g. right cw, right twist)
-specific switch or swipe is not required to perform this action

Grand Master Snapuswipe
-In order; grand master swipe (aerial form), followed by twist to resemble snapuswipe. Inversion should occur as in flash-full and the move itself becomes something of a side-flipped flash-full.


A big tipoff to how these moves work is to watch the exampler Sessh made, the position he's in prior to performing this move is sideways, just as in GMS!

[Rudy]

so they always were two tricks....

hmmm....

[Cory]

This is what we needed. Thank you, Dan!

[Rudy]

dan you are a hero!

[Dragonic MiKe]

so they always were two tricks....

hmmm....

Whoda thunk it? Hahaha.

Once again the wisdom of Mr. Perez shines through.

I'ma go GMSnapuswipe naow kthxbai.

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

So a sideways flashfull is a Grandmaster Snapuswipe right? Then the grandmaster would be talking about the "takeoff" of the trick right?

[Rudy]

basically, yeah

[Dragonic MiKe]

Yep.

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

Awesome. I guess this means that in some wierd way the Raiz is a one-footed sideflip.

EDIT: Then you guys must have been doing Grandmaster Snapus if your Swipe was present.

[Dragonic MiKe]

Um...

Nope.


Edit: Hahaha, okay it sort of is in a bizarre kind of way, but you shouldn't think of it like that or explain it like that, or mention it ever again.

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

Lol got it.

[Ambitrixterous]

So a sideways flashfull is a Grandmaster Snapuswipe right? Then the grandmaster would be talking about the "takeoff" of the trick right?

The "master" part, yes. Just think of it like this:

"gainer" kick one leg forward
"axeto" kick one leg backward
"master" kick one leg across your body sideways

Awesome. I guess this means that in some wierd way the Raiz is a one-footed sideflip.

Almost... there are 3 separate kinds of raiz! :shocked::shocked: The one you're thinking of is the "invert raiz" or "low raiz" but it's not a sideflip the whole time...




you shouldn't mention it ever again.

This :tongue:

[Rudy]

\

Almost... there are 3 separate kinds of raiz! :shocked::shocked: The one you're thinking of is the "invert raiz" or "low raiz" but it's not a sideflip the whole time...







i remember this from LK.... god i thought i knew soo much then you mentioned 3 raizes and i was like...wait wut?

[frankinstine]

Almost... there are 3 separate kinds of raiz! :shocked::shocked: The one you're thinking of is the "invert raiz" or "low raiz" but it's not a sideflip the whole time...





This :tongue:

then what is the third raiz?

[OpenxEyedxBeast]

Yea, I had a feeling the there is lots of ways to do one move in some cases.

[Rudy]

then what is the third raiz?

raiz (pronounced raise)

and invert raiz (pronounced raise again)

raiz

dan...you'll have to take this one i'm not even going to try and explain it

[frankinstine]

raiz (pronounced raise)

and invert raiz (pronounced raise again)

raiz

dan...you'll have to take this one i'm not even going to try and explain it

examples? cuz i know about high and low(invert/aeria) raiz, but not about the third. vids plx?

[Skilzat85X]

Besides, it's the subtleties of tricks that differentiate them. I'd consider the switch in this trick to be more important than how inverted a move is, but we differentiate between a cork and a gainer full.
There is a looot more to the difference between Cork and Gainer Full than mere amounts of inversion haha.

[Ambitrixterous]

raiz (pronounced raise)

and invert raiz (pronounced raise again)

raiz

dan...you'll have to take this one i'm not even going to try and explain it

Yea you pretty much have it. Without going into detail on this cause I know people will call this out without the backup info and explanation which is why I'm working on an exampler on this right now (and Nick may or may not be as well) but the 3 are:

raiz (horizontal, like an upside-down butterfly)

invert raiz (inverted, starts as sideflip and turns into backflip, looks like aerial)

rise (inverted, literally IS a backflip. The "cheat takeoff into gainer" method and used for td rise)

[frankinstine]

Yea you pretty much have it. Without going into detail on this cause I know people will call this out without the backup info and explanation which is why I'm working on an exampler on this right now (and Nick may or may not be as well) but the 3 are:

raiz (horizontal, like an upside-down butterfly)

invert raiz (inverted, starts as sideflip and turns into backflip, looks like aerial)

rise (inverted, literally IS a backflip. The "cheat takeoff into gainer" method and used for td rise)

it sounds like hte cheat gainer version and the aerial/invert rise would look pretty close.

[Dragonic MiKe]

Yea you pretty much have it. Without going into detail on this cause I know people will call this out without the backup info and explanation which is why I'm working on an exampler on this right now (and Nick may or may not be as well) but the 3 are:

raiz (horizontal, like an upside-down butterfly)

invert raiz (inverted, starts as sideflip and turns into backflip, looks like aerial)

rise (inverted, literally IS a backflip. The "cheat takeoff into gainer" method and used for td rise)

I'm curious, Dan.

Do you consider them three separate tricks or three separate ways to do the same trick? (Wow, that sounds a quite theological doesn't it?)

[Ambitrixterous]

it sounds like hte cheat gainer version and the aerial/invert rise would look pretty close.

Yea and there's this awesome rock, scissors, paper theme which ties them each together at "x" point which made it almost impossible for me to learn to do it all 3 ways so that I could teach & perform them...

Want to know how good Fosse is? At Loopkicks I started blabbing on about this and he was listening along with a few people, got up, stood in the center, and in 1 try did raiz, then invert raiz, then rise. Then I wanted to quit tricking and just watch him from then on :shocked:

I'm curious, Dan.

Do you consider them three separate tricks or three separate ways to do the same trick? (Wow, that sounds a quite theological doesn't it?)

3 separate tricks. How does that make you feel? :tongue:

[Skilzat85X]

I'm afraid I can't quite agree with that nomenclature although I do understand the principles you decided to use to name them.

I define the horizontal, unarched, uninverted Raiz as merely...an Uninverted Raiz haha. Or just a horizontal step over, I don't really name it anything.

All other Raiz variations I define merely as Raiz, because they share enough of the same technical value, which for the sake of this thread I won't go into now; however I am going to have a more descriptive write-up/explanatory tutorial in regards to the principles behind them.

[Ambitrixterous]

I'm afraid I can't quite agree with that nomenclature although I do understand the principles you decided to use to name them.

I define the horizontal, unarched, uninverted Raiz as merely...an Uninverted Raiz haha. Or just a horizontal step over, I don't really name it anything.

All other Raiz variations I define merely as Raiz, because they share enough of the same technical value, which for the sake of this thread I won't go into now; however I am going to have a more descriptive write-up/explanatory tutorial in regards to the principles behind them.

Well the original one was the horizontal one, and I heard it was even an axeto first (you know how those Brazilians love their one-legged stuff) although I don't know if that's true. But it looks good as hell:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j264/aquabelt/raiz-1.gif

& yea depending on how fine you wanna draw your lines I could see an 'upside down is upside down' rule.

[Dragonic MiKe]

3 separate tricks. How does that make you feel? :tongue:

Cold and alone. :sad:

[frankinstine]

Does ankone have video of the three types of raiz?

[Skilzat85X]

Well the original one was the horizontal one, and I heard it was even an axeto first (you know how those Brazilians love their one-legged stuff) although I don't know if that's true. But it looks good as hell:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j264/aquabelt/raiz-1.gif

& yea depending on how fine you wanna draw your lines I could see an 'upside down is upside down' rule.

Interesting hmm that's not the one I had in mind for the horizontal Raiz, actually, haha. I had more of yeno, a "laid back" 540 without the kick, or one of those unarched/uninverted Sideswipe types, without the kick of course. Knawmean?

As far as the gif goes it's awesome haha.

[dpitlock]

I want Dan to write a book about every trick and everything about trick. Some of the things I don't completely agree on (such as changing names of tricks that are already named and others...) but I would like to learn and try to understand.

[JarmoZ]

THIS IS A GOOD THREAD!!
Me likes :D

So the "GMS Twist" i did today was kinda GM Twist cos it didn't have that SWIPE in it what it needs to be the real GMS Twist?!

[D.A.]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j264/aquabelt/raiz-1.gif


Imagine hyper hooking that! :amazed:


Here is a question for you Dan Perez: (assuming I would be right to categorize these in such a way)
Would there be much fundamental difference between the "sideswipe" (and then snapuswipe) variation of the low raiz and the "rise?" simply besides the axis of flatspin and twisting rotation?

like, assuming I can switch and swipe each one of these, and then twist out of the swipe. would the "low raiz snapu" and the "rise snapu" look that much different?

edit: imagine hyperhooking that trick above and then carrying thru into another one!! :amazed: :shocked:

[David M.]

gmt should be like an aerial twist. face forward while you twist, just do it off ur opposite leg lololz.

most people when they gmt do some crappy cartwheel s/t gainer switch twist.

plus when you atwist, hardly anyone emphasises the aerial, they just go into the twist. therefore there is no need to emphasize what people call the 'swipe' (lol swipe in an aerial)

i say as long as you do cartwheel or whatever, and do an aerial twist so long as your leg doesnt go behind you (making it w/t) then you're good for gmt.

[Cory]

Well, based on the information Dan has given us, they were two different tricks all along (I was unaware). The "swiped" version is a Grand mastersnapuswipe.

[Rudy]

THIS IS A GOOD THREAD!!
Me likes :D

So the "GMS Twist" i did today was kinda GM Twist cos it didn't have that SWIPE in it what it needs to be the real GMS Twist?!

it would be a grand master snapuswipe

[JarmoZ]

Grand mastersnapuswipe.

aka GMS Twist! imo the easier way for calling this trick and still understandable name ;)

I think calling GM Snapuswipe isn't as logical as GMS Twist..
Still wondering why not to keep this simple and just call these tricks
GMS
GM Twist
GMS TWist

[D.A.]

therefore there is no need to emphasize what people call the 'swipe' (lol swipe in an aerial)



I would actually categorize aerials in the "swipe" category of teh trix.

edit:
aka GMS Twist! imo the easier name for calling this trick

or GM Snapu

[JarmoZ]

or GM Snapu

or this..

[Dragonic MiKe]

most people when they gmt do some crappy cartwheel s/t gainer switch twist.

Cartwheel s/t gainer switch twist is much harder than GMT.

You're essentially talking about a swingthru Doubleflash Full.

[David M.]

Cartwheel s/t gainer switch twist is much harder than GMT.

You're essentially talking about a swingthru Doubleflash Full.


yeah it's harder, but its what some people do. (yet call it what it isn't)

[Anubis]

crazy is what this move is