Some interresting (maybe) questions, having serious problems here :(

[Seb]

Hi all :)

Long story below, sorry for that :(

First of all, I'm 34 years old, 190cm, weigh very very much too little, and I'm not very flexible in any part of my body. According to "doctors" I'm normally flexible in my legs, front and side, but more stiff in my back/neck.

Gonna try some kickboxing next year and have been doing some serious stretching in my legs the last 2 months or so, but I dont gain much at all, maybe I'm to old to start stretching, or something's strange with my muscles, or my stretching methods just ain't optimized for my body.

So here we go, this is what I've done at least the last month, since I discovered this site and changed some of my previous stretchingmethods.

I stretch 6 days a week, including warmup the stretching (and some light rehab training for shoulders and knee) take about 60 minutes, so I really put some effort to it.
3 times a week, after regular muscle-workout, I do PNF/Isometrics, while the other 3 days I do softer stretching. All these 6 days I do controlled dynamic frontkicks, 2x10 or so.

The first really big problem is I'm very very sensitive in my groins and my hip-flexors.
Cause of this I gave up on sidesplit-training a while ago, every time I tried it, even if I took it somewhat easy and it felt good while stretching, I got serious aching when LEAVING the stretch.
Every site on the web (including this one) mentions it shouldn't ache while stretching, but my groins dont ache while I'm training for the side-split position, the ache comes when leaving, and I get all stiff and aching quite a while afterwards too....sometimes for like a week or more if pushing it.
Kind of same thing with hipflexors when stretching, feels pretty good while stretching, but when leaving, and between stretching, its kind of aching somewhat and not feeling very good around the groins/hip-flexors.

Anyway, I've tried groins so many times I just dont care about them anymore, but still do some hip-flexors since its necessary to do decent front-kicks.

The second big problem is that hamstrings, which I actually manage to stretch without getting seriously injured, sadly doesn't gain much at all. I can stand with one leg straight extended in front of me, leaning on something, with an angle of maybe 90-100 degrees, so I'm not the stiffest person in the world, but not exactly extremely flexible either ;)
And the gains I've seen the last two months are really not big at all, and the last weeks about non existent I would say (hard to measure).

Well, thats some background story and descriptions, lets get a nice short concrete list with questions to that :)

1. Is it unusual that some stretches I do (groins and hipflexors) feel good while stretching, but really ache when leaving the stretch, and also feel stiff/ache all days long from the stretching?

2. Why dont I gain much hamstring flexibility at all? It feels pretty good stretching and I push pretty hard when doing PNF/Isometrics, mixed with controlled dynamic kicks too.

3. Is it ok if you feel a little stiff after a stretch? I mean, if I do hard hamstrings, then I feel LESS flexibility the rest of that day. Is that normal, just like your muscles can feel tired/ache after hard workout, while in the long run they get stronger? Or should you immediately get a lasting effect from the stretches???

4. Is it maybe ok to add some unplanned stretches during the day? Just soft careful stretching without any warmup. Like if you have 5 minutes over waiting for something, just bend over and touch your toes, or throw a leg up, doing some hamstrings, or will that just be counterproductive since you wont "reach the bottom" of the stretch and the body will remember this shorter range?

5. Might I just be to old, 34yr, to begin stretching with positive results?

Many thanks for some help that can make me gain some more leg-flexibility...if possible :)

[Ashtar]

More flexible in your legs than your back eh? I've got too much flex in my lower back and not enough in my hamstrings, I kinda envy you a bit! You're not too old to start stretching, there's no 'maybe' about it, there's never a case where you don't benefit from stretching, unless you just got a hip replaced or some wicked injury and the doctor wants it immobilized. Even so, it's more like cases like that they stretch very gradually with more attention.

You don't need to give up on the side splits, if it's aggravating you you don't do a side-splits stretch yet, you work on a stretch for the same muscles that is not as harsh on you. In his 'relax into stretch' book, Pavel lists side splits as an advanced stretch and has precursor stretches for the adductors that you do beforehand.

I'm not really sure if the hip flexors get stretched during side splits... that's more like the back leg in a front split.

It's okay to ache during a stretch, it's just that the ache should not become pain. If you are holding a stretch for long periods, or especially if adding extra isometric tension, it actually should get sore because lactic acid is going to build up from working the muscles' endurance. This is what makes them stronger.

The reason it hurts more when leaving is probably because when you leave, that's when you're the most tired, because you've done the most work, because the exhaustion builds up. As for being sore afterwards, that could be delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) which is when your endorphines lower a bit and you might feel the soreness a bit more pointedly since you were blocking some of it out. That, and if your muscles are growing in response to the isometric contractions, the tissues swell with blood and with adding new protein overlay and all that.

I don't have enough experience with this to comment on what is normal and how long you should feel sore afterwards. This can vary a lot based on health and stuff. Obviously older people are going to feel this a bit more, so you'll feel it more than me, and I'll feel it more than some of the people starting here as teens. Regardless of normal, we can just try to take some steps to lessen this, like getting proper nutrition, rest, self-massage, etc.

Controlled dynamic kicks aren't done to build hamstring flexibility, since they don't surpass the range of motion you have attained doing passive stretching. They're more to teach the motor coordination and fast-relaxation. For the PNF/Iso, what guides are you using for this? Do you coordinate your breathing (inhale/exhale) with the tension/stretch? Do you vary between fully supporting your body weight, and shifting some of it to your hands when you drop down further? How long are you holding the isometrics? Too short and it's hard to build up enough tension, but too long and the tension drops off (fast twitch fibres can only fire so long) and then there's less of a nerve trick.

Unplanned stretches are fine just as long as they are not maximal. Stuff like static-active stretching I think can be pretty much done at any time, along with throwing some gentle dynamic stretches, or stretching passively without going to your maximum. Personally, I don't think this is counterproductive at all, because it's still closer to ideal than standing around not stretching at all is.

Even really old peopel can stretch with positive results. That guy Flexmutant who used to come around here, I stumbled across his guide I dled a long time ago, and he had people in retirement hopes in full splits or something.

[Seb]

Ok, thanks for the feedback :)

The thing is I get really serious pain when leaving a side-split stretch, I have to slowly, and very stiff, try to get up bit by bit, and then walk around like a 100 year old a minute afterwards....thats why I dont do sidesplit-stretches anymore.
Same with hipflexors, but not as bad, and they are necessary also or I wont be able to do either front nor side kicks, and thats bad :D

When I do PNF/Iso I do like three tense/relax-cycles, during maybe 30 seconds, and when down to the maximum I do some half-tension for 30 seconds or so. I dont like the idea of fully tensioning the muscles, its enough with something in between. So far down they are tensed no matter if I try to relax or not, so I just add some extra tension to it and hold 30 sec. I do that 2 sets, and hamstrings I do both sitting and standing (bend over touching floor).

But I wonder if its ok to feel LESS flexible after stretching. Is that how its supposed to be, or are you supposed to almost instantly gain some?
Or maybe, as long as you do hard stretching, you always walk around feeling more or less sore in the muscles? And when you're satisfied and just try to maintain your flexibility level THEN you can feel like normal and use your flexibility fully?

I dont have a clue how its supposed to be/feel, usually not mentioned anywhere :(

Worst thing is hip-flexors though, they ache, like if I try to lift my knees or something, sit on a chair and lift the foot to put on a shoe or whatever, I dont know why hip-flexors and groins are so sensitive for me.

[tsuchinoko]

I would recommend that you leave PNF stretching for a few weeks. Do squats or whatever and finish that by doing some relaxed stretches for 10-20 minutes. Holding a stretching for at least 30 seconds.
After 2-3 weeks then do your PNF stretching. Also, there is no 'set' way in how to do isometric stretching, tense and relax when you feel like in the stretch.
For example, you're in a front split, you do short tensions lasting 1-2 seconds you do that for 20 seconds, then for the 2nd set you do longer tensions of 3-5 seconds for 30 seconds etc etc.

[Seb]

But the biggest problem, except that I dont gain much at all in hamstrings, is that hip-flexors (and groins if I try it) ache all days long, and I've never even done PNF/Isometrics for them since I know they are so sensitive.
I just stretch them carefully, no real pushing, but still groins/hip-flex are really sensitive and dont feel good.

Dont know what to do really, maybe stretch hip-flexors even less, just a few times each week, maybe they dont need to be THAT long for front-kicks.

Thanks :)

[Papa Lazarou]

You could try just doing exercise with a decent range of motion.

You say you're underweight, maybe your muscles aren't prepared for serious stretching?

Or you could just reduce your stretching drastically, until it stops being an issue. Then work back up etc etc.

I think Ashtar probably covered it better though.

[Graber]

omg, wtf are u doing in here? are u writing a book here man?

[Ashtar]

Graber: tldr

As for the soreness and pain, a lot of guides recommend strengthening the areas beforehand I think, so like knee raises or whatever. I don't know if that's help pre/re hab it.

I wonder, can still like this happen when you primarily stretch the adductors and not the abductors, making an imbalance or something? Both Juji and Pavel have glute stretches in their guides. That wouldn't explain front split problems though, since the 2 front splits should balance each other out as long as they're well balanced.

[Ewasiuk]

Is it just me or is ashtar starting to make decent quality posts now?

Haha graber's avatar keeps making me laugh. Who's back in buisness graber?

[Seb]

As for the soreness and pain, a lot of guides recommend strengthening the areas beforehand I think, so like knee raises or whatever. I don't know if that's help pre/re hab it.

I wonder, can still like this happen when you primarily stretch the adductors and not the abductors, making an imbalance or something? Both Juji and Pavel have glute stretches in their guides. That wouldn't explain front split problems though, since the 2 front splits should balance each other out as long as they're well balanced.
I dont know what adductors/abductors are, but these are the stretches I do (not including arms/neck and upper areas like that).

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s14.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s16.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s51.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s28.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s32.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s33.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s59.jpg
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s70.jpg

I really have hip-flexor aches all days now, I have to try something....maybe easier hip-flexor stretches only a few days a week, and never hard strething, while going hard with hamstrings and the others. And see if that helps.
Dont really know how to strength train the hip-flexors, or if its needed :s

[DillingerLFP]

I'm not all to flexible ither. I can't do back bends or anything. But I seem to be just fine.

[Seb]

Yeah, but for kicking it could be nice....

[Birch]

So let your kickboxing coach tell you the necessary stretches needed for kicking flexibility.

[Ashtar]

I dont know what adductors/abductors areAd = they pull the limb towards the midline. They're on the inside of your thigh. They're tensed to hold you standing up in splits.
Ab = they pull the limb away from the midline. They're on the outside of your thigh. They're tensed when you stand on one leg and raise the other to the side.

[Seb]

Ok, thanks :)

Anyway I think I'm gonna try LESS hip-flexor stretches, while continuing doing no groin-stretches at all....maybe its just not for me, I'll have to try some more stuff and see what happens.

Anyway I'm gonna do some straight legged deadmans lifts (I think thats the english term anyway) which will train my hamstrings, I just realised I do no training whatsoever that targets hamstrings. Might be good for stretching results, even if I'm way shorter there today after trying it yesterday for the first time :D

[Dave C]

Good grief, and people say TT isn't useful/user friendly/capable of answering questions nicely.

Well done TT Scholars!

[henrikhansen]

The only reason why you dont have any flexibility in your hamstring is because, the hamstring is bend or tensed almost all day. You say your underweight, thats the reason its hurts when doing hip flexor
/ PNF stretch, because it stretch, TENSE AND STRENGHTING the muscle in the areas. If you dont have any muscle to tense when you will get hurt.

[Seb]

The only reason why you dont have any flexibility in your hamstring is because, the hamstring is bend or tensed almost all day. You say your underweight, thats the reason its hurts when doing hip flexor
/ PNF stretch, because it stretch, TENSE AND STRENGHTING the muscle in the areas. If you dont have any muscle to tense when you will get hurt.

Sounds interresting, but I dont think thats the case since I dont to hip-flexor PNF, I just try to hold the stretch for 20-30 sec somewhat relaxed.

[Ashtar]

Henrik, why is the hamstring bent or tensed all day? Do you mean because of sitting? Why would being underweight make doing hip flexor stretches more painful? Weighing less means your muscles have less weight to hold up in these stretches.

[henrikhansen]

Henrik, why is the hamstring bent or tensed all day? Do you mean because of sitting? Why would being underweight make doing hip flexor stretches more painful? Weighing less means your muscles have less weight to hold up in these stretches.

1. Underweight means no fat and no muscle right?

2.Yes i mean be sitting, and standing. Because then you stand up with yours leg straight, and relaxed, you hamstring take some of the weight causing it to bent very little and tense = less flexibility, unless stretching.

3.I dont know why i wrote hip flexors, it must have been an mistake.

[Ashtar]

Underweight is usually based on BMI. I just based it on him saying 'I weight too little'. Nobody has no fat and no muscle.

When you stand up, the hamstring may be shortened in terms of the hip but in terms of the knee it's lengthened. Having to tense throughout the day doesn't mean a muscle will necessarily be inflexible. If you develope more strength than you need throughout the day, that reserve's left over for flexibility.

[henrikhansen]

Yes but normally when your underweight, you have less muscle.

You have right about the knee thing, but when you are STARTING to stretch your "sene" (I dont know the English word for it, i put in a piture of what i mean.), in the end of you hamstring muscle, are normally VERY unflexible, IMO, causing you to feel it more behind the knee than in you hamstring, and it will take some time to get the flexibility. Thats maybe one of the reason why it takes longer time in the begining.

[Seb]

Ok, strength seems to be the key to stretching in many ways.
Better build some more strenght, its not a negative thing in any way either so why not :)