"Hand Touch" - WTF?

[Safari]

Hola, TT'ers! Me and my man Augenatic [one hell of a smart 15 yr old], were discussing the "the-hand-thouch" - Issue on tricks. Matters like "Should it be considered non landed if you do a triple cork and accidently touch with one hand due to low landing?" or should it be considered landed?

You got different types of touches, I'm just gonna mention two, to make it easy. You have the "Ah fuck my hand slipped and touched the ground accidently" - touch and you have the "OMFG I can't land this on my legs I put my hand(s) down so I atleast land" - touch.

both are landed, but the last ones need support on the landing the first just loses balance. Anyways, both are landed but they both look less cool than a trick landed with no hands.

I've seen for ex. My man Wingen do Cork - double Cork and have a slight touch on the ground and then go like "Fuck I didn't land".. That is just terrible.. He landed it but his hand touched. It would've looked better with no touch but he still landed it.

The main issue is: Is it fair to say that a trick is NOT landed when a "touch" (of any kind) happens in the landing?



DISCUSS and give opinions!

[Rakamarasu]

In my opinion a trick isnt landed until you do it without touching.
I can easily force me to land a double full with hands, alot of gyro tricks etc.
Though the hand barely touching.. not sure there.
Just gonna be a man and call it landed if my hands dont touch, makes it easier :)

Atleast in my book "landing" should be controlled, ofc it can happen that you land off balance some times and touch hands or run like a girl to not fall and stuff but.
Control :)

[AsoBit]

When just twisting, I feel hands shouldn't touch

But when it comes to something like this:
Tm9qeq5-918

The kick is so damn nice that the hand touch is a non-issue for me.

It's really more of an issue of control I think. If your hand touches because you know your kick would otherwise throw you off balance, and you are still capable of coming out of the move confidently and able to combo, then it's no problem I think.

[anerky]

Tricks can be landed on your ass, landed on your knees or landed on your head...
so yes it is landed if you touch your hands.... landed on all fours or threes. Landed like a doggy

a clean landing doesn't involve your hands, unless, of course, that's part of the trick.

[nightak]

only allowed touch is james yus btwist s/t boxcutter from unveiled

Mostly i say touching = not landing sth.
if you clearly landed but sliced the floor with 1 hand it's still landed in my opinion.

[Rudy]

for me i don't count it...ever...if i tap i get up and do it again until i don't.


but for some people i realize the necessary tap or touch for control (like james' boxcutter)

[Safari]

Landing on you head it's an obvious fail ofc.. as anerky said you can land in every position but it's a stupid statement since you knew what I meant.. Like landing on your legs is a "landing" when it comes to tricking [unless it's a part of a trick not to]. Do all tricks have to be clean landed to be accepted as a landed trick?

[anerky]

Landing on you head it's an obvious fail ofc.. as anerky said you can land in every position but it's a stupid statement since you knew what I meant.. Like landing on your legs is a "landing" when it comes to tricking [unless it's a part of a trick not to]. Do all tricks have to be clean landed to be accepted as a landed trick?

Right, landings on head, hands, back etc are fail landings. In tricking we consider landing on the feet to be proper.

I also think that we use different standards when opening up a brand new trick. The first landing of a trick seems to be expected to be done on feet and only feet.

I agree with Rudy too. If it isn't landed right, redo it.

also, it's almost never an issue. It comes down to common sense most of the time. We all know that James Yu's boxcutters are the sick nastiest. Problems only come up when people want a particular person to have landed a trick more than they want the actual trick to have been landed.

[Skilzat85X]

My opinion is that it's always circumstantial so it's somewhat a step backwards to try to make a cut and dry ruling for it, yeno what I mean?

[AsoBit]

My opinion is that it's always circumstantial so it's somewhat a step backwards to try to make a cut and dry ruling for it, yeno what I mean?

Indubitably

[stefanuz]

Imo when you need to use your hands to land, you didn't make the trick. I don't mean that you have to land it super clean, you can get off balance and run like a girl, as long as you're on your feet, it's not as goodlooking, but it's landed. If you touch your hands it means that you wouldn't have made the trick and fallen on your face without using hands... soo imo this isn't something to argue about, it's common sence. Some exceptions i think could be touching one hand on hook-tricks like hyperhook or boxcutter, cus that's more a matter of style i think (to get the hook even higher etc)..
peace out

[stefanuz]

and to clear that up even more, when i say i approve a slight touch in a hyperhook, boxcutter etc. the user has to have landed the trick without hands first, then if he wants to make small changes to make the kick higher, or work better in combos it's fine with me

[Reim]

Personally, I wouldn't consider it landing the move, or "Stuck". You have to figure out if you're just trying to land the more and be able to walk away from it, or if you're trying to full on Stick the move.

But as I said, personally in my training I wouldn't consider it a landed move. If I'm just tricking and having fun, I don't really care. When watching others, I don't mind hand taps as far as defining landed moves, but I mark it against them, unless done in a stylish manner.

[Vaughnya]

i dont count it as landing either. i say, "NOT EXCEPTIBLE!" get up and do it again

[orichiu]

Well if a hand touch would still be considered as landing.
Then I just did a double B hyper hahha :tongue:

[Safari]

Well if a hand touch would still be considered as landing.
Then I just did a double B hyper hahha :tongue:

Welcome to the club^^

I dunno guys, hand touch is not big really. as stefanuz says.. Running around like a girl after a move but no touching is acceptible, but it looks better with a touch than a run around the gym..

Also Sesshoumaru, the man of touching the ground.. He does btwist - snapu *touch*.. is that no landed or what? Oh weeeell

[Kalvin]

In my opinion i would say that if you can come close enough to accidently put your hand down you could also just not put your hands down lol

[jan]

I like to touch things with mah hands.. :)
Purty things..
I wanna pet the rabbit :)

[simon]

that was totally the guy in your avatar speaking there jan.

[k-slash]

LMAO JANS AVATAR.

I don't count anything I do as landed unless I have no hands touching.

[jan]

GOD DAMMIT!

[Ambitrixterous]

Aw c'mon now there's some serious bullshit in this thread, James himself will tell you that his hand touching down was an accident so if you consider his hand touching in that clip ok you have to allow it on others also, or if you wanna be a hardass and say no hands whatsoever then he just crashed.

To contribute to what Safari was posting about, I think it works like this:

There are crashes and there are landings, and either can be clean or sloppy.

Clean Landing: no hands, no stumble, just clean as fuck. Perfect.
Sloppy Landing: a hand touches, or you stumble and run around like a doofus
Clean (good) Crash: your ass was saved only by the fact you put both hands down like a pushup (still a crash but close enough to be a respectable attempt) OR you land on your feet and THEN fall
Sloppy (bad) Crash: good 'ol fashioned didn't make it. On your hands and KNEES, or just your ass, or side, or face... etc etc


It's good to have high standards for yourself & work towards perfection, but it's also good to recognize your accomplishments.

[Safari]

Aw c'mon now there's some serious bullshit in this thread, James himself will tell you that his hand touching down was an accident so if you consider his hand touching in that clip ok you have to allow it on others also, or if you wanna be a hardass and say no hands whatsoever then he just crashed.

To contribute to what Safari was posting about, I think it works like this:

There are crashes and there are landings, and either can be clean or sloppy.

Clean Landing: no hands, no stumble, just clean as fuck. Perfect.
Sloppy Landing: a hand touches, or you stumble and run around like a doofus
Clean (good) Crash: your ass was saved only by the fact you put both hands down like a pushup (still a crash but close enough to be a respectable attempt) OR you land on your feet and THEN fall
Sloppy (bad) Crash: good 'ol fashioned didn't make it. On your hands and KNEES, or just your ass, or side, or face... etc etc


It's good to have high standards for yourself & work towards perfection, but it's also good to recognize your accomplishments.

Thank you mr. Perez I've been waiting for that all day. Your last sentence is what I wanted to hear! Assaah!

[D.A.]

I think if you’re doing something like a boxcutter in the middle of a combo, and your hand taps but the combo flows well, you have probably still fulfilled the awesomeness that is the boxcutter (or whatever trick you did) and if it looks cool, why worry too much?

But I think nowadays there is a difference when going for very high-level moves that are very rare or have never been done before. Let’s take something like the triple cork. I for one want the person who gets the alleged fame of being the first to land this to STOMP it. If someone lands feet first but touches out, it’s sort of a let-down for everyone, ya know?

And don’t give me some excuse like: “oh I could have not touched if I wanted to!” because that’s bullshit! If you had the balls to actually GO FOR THE MOVE, why would you wimp out on the landing? My point is, if you really could land it without hands, you would!
But like I said, that only goes for those impossible single moves. If your hand touched the ground in a combo so that you would have more momentum to continue the combo, then that’s just peachy :smile:

This goes along with my idea that, if you only do a trick once, you haven’t really DONE it. Like, if you’ve only landed a trick ONE FREAKIN’ TIME, there’s NO WAY you’ve actually fulfilled what the trick should be. Plus, the whole idea behind tricking is being able to put together tricks into combos, so why not combo it? Indeed something like the cali roll is quite difficult to combo, but damnit! doing it once is like quitting! I mean, when you land your first 540 or corkscrew, do you just walk away saying: “Yes! I did it!” and never try it again? HELL NO YOU DON’T! You’ve gotta COMBO THAT SHIT!

But then again as a person, I’m more impressed when someone lands a difficult combo than a difficult single trick. Tricking is about the combos!

Land on your feet unless the trick is supposed to be landed on your hands.



ALSO: to add something to what safari said, COMBOS as well should never be done JUST ONCE (unless you’re going to die if you try it again haha). If you’ve done a combo once, why not do it again? Why not ADD TO IT? It’s really silly to do a combo just once for a sampler and then never be able to do it again. What kind of tricker loses tricks and combos as quickly as he/she gains them?



edit: I like what DPT said.

[McGriddle]

Like mostly everyone has said, it depends on how much you rely on putting your hands down to keep yourself from falling. I let hand tapping go alot, but the one thing I can't stand is when someone does a trick and then lands in that fucking ninja pose. (Team Ryouko does that a lot if I'm not mistaken. I haven't watched a Ryouko sampler since I found out what tricking was.) It's used a lot for x-outs and shit. I know Kjer did it a lot in the sampler he just posted, great tricks but I can't stand seeing someone land in the ninja pose. I know it can be used to go into scoots but...really? I personally think it looks lame as shit. Sorry to get off the topic of hand tapping, but I guess it could relate somehow.

[Anubis]

Aw c'mon now there's some serious bullshit in this thread, James himself will tell you that his hand touching down was an accident so if you consider his hand touching in that clip ok you have to allow it on others also, or if you wanna be a hardass and say no hands whatsoever then he just crashed.

To contribute to what Safari was posting about, I think it works like this:

There are crashes and there are landings, and either can be clean or sloppy.

Clean Landing: no hands, no stumble, just clean as fuck. Perfect.
Sloppy Landing: a hand touches, or you stumble and run around like a doofus
Clean (good) Crash: your ass was saved only by the fact you put both hands down like a pushup (still a crash but close enough to be a respectable attempt) OR you land on your feet and THEN fall
Sloppy (bad) Crash: good 'ol fashioned didn't make it. On your hands and KNEES, or just your ass, or side, or face... etc etc


It's good to have high standards for yourself & work towards perfection, but it's also good to recognize your accomplishments.

i completely agree with this

[Rudy]

if i tap on something i get up and yell FITTA!!! and do it again...

[McGriddle]

if i tap on something i get up and yell FITTA!!! and do it again...

FITTA...? Facetious Iguanas Tenderly Touch Asshole?

[ninjohn22]

If you accidentally slice the ground with your hand it's "landed" but personally the footage isnt worth a damn to me so I would re due it anyway. All in your own personal expectations and standards. Full hand catch never counts tho.. ever

[David M.]

FITTA...? Facetious Iguanas Tenderly Touch Asshole?

fitta.

means pussy.

listen to bolli when he tricks.

[willbo26]

my opinion is that if you touch your hand on the ground when doing a trick it's still "landed" but i call it a sketchy landing as well as if you stumble and stuff. but if you stick it without touching your hands on the ground it's landed properly but as i said it's a sketchy landing in you touch your hand and solid if you dont.

[KJER]

i touch the ground all the time
i dont give a fuckkkkkkkkkkkkk

[stefanuz]

i know you like to touch the ground kjer :P so do i, not saying anything negative about it, i think it makes the combo different and ads style. BUT if you're going for a big trick, say doublecork and you can't land it without a hand touch, don't fucking say you can land it!!! that shit just makes me wanna hit somebody real hard! On the other hand if your doing doublecork in a combo and YOU think that the combo flows easier and better with a hand touch, go for it. but don't say you can land a big trick if you have to touch hands, that's bullshit and you know it! sorry safari, but really come on!!! :P

[simon]

man i handtouch most tricks hahaha.

[Khaos]

kicks a touch is fine to me but twists i personally dont count it until no hands touch he ground bar like 1-h c720's

[TKD_Andy]

i double hand touched an aerial the other day.


this is a pretty bad principle to try and encorporate. Sure, while we may appreciate that people like CA and kjer will put their hand down when they're throwing something insane, you can bet your bottom dollar that the next generation of noobs will be deliberately landing with one hand down, or settling for only landing a trick when they put their hand down just because its accepted as a "hand down" trick.

the same principle applies to the shift from kicks to twists in tricking. Now people are more readily accepted as "incredible" trickers because they can double ABCD etc, they're just not working on their kicks because they dont have to in the eyes of the screaming fanboys that they hear more often than not.

Twists are now basically quantitative, whereas kicks are qualitative, and qualitative takes more time and effort to get right. ***

The principle you discuss would basically induce a gradual lowering of standards to both quantitative and qualitative tricks, and I believe that will only be a bad thing for the future of tricking.


*** what I mean by this is that people will more readily go nuts over someone doing a hyper double B if its pretty much at a 45' angle than if someone did a c10 with a bent-as-hell dog-legged kick below ankle height. And unfortunately people dont seem to value cleanly executed kicks as much as any excuse for a double this or triple that. I guess this was to be expected *sigh*

[Braka]

I agree with TKD Andy!

[DaraZol]

Ok before I say any thing just want to point out that I am not a tricker (yet) so my argument might be moot just for that

But to quote my old sempai (Kyokushin karate)
“
If you still got momentum ‘n force in you after the technique is done you did it wrong,
If you can’t redirect all of you’re force into the opponent or the ground you did it wrong,
If you readjust you’re stance after the technique is done you did it wrong
If you don’t keep you’re guard up during training *kicks me in the stomach, send me flying through the dojo* you’re not even doing techniques. *walks of laughing*
”
(A the good old days)

So what I’m saying is that the combo in the vid was not done right due to the fact that he readjusted his feet at the end. The fact that he touched the ground couldn’t bother me less. And so dose most of every one who tricks (or run the momentum off) so… I don’t know take it for what its worth.

Not saying he can’t do the technique just that he did it “wrong” and he did not land it because he still had momentum. If he kept his stance it would have been landed from my point of view. The touching is irrelevant to me as long as you can move on to the next move without stance adjustment.

Edit2:
O man I feel stupid I thought that you were arguing about the transition between two techniques with the aid of touching the ground that would be totally fine according to me but the landing is by no means a good landing if its suppose to be landed on you’re feet. That’s like saying a kick to the shoulder is good enough if you’re suppose to kick the head.

Sorry if I sound harsh. It’s still an impressive combo, but theirs always room for improvement

[Guru]

I dont think it matters as long as you make it look clean and recover well. But i do what most people do and get up and do it again until its right or until i get hurt alot.

[Ambitrixterous]

kicks a touch is fine to me but twists i personally dont count it until no hands touch he ground bar like 1-h c720's

haha man why would a touch be fine on a kick? Kicks are the only tricks that you should never have the opportunity to have a hand touch unless it's on purpose

i double hand touched an aerial the other day.

Dude you missed the whole point of this thread. Nobody is saying it's okay to add hands on all your landings or to degrade our sense of quality in our tricks, what Safari was asking was for people's opinions of officialty when someone lands and there is a discrepancy (like when Anis did double cork + double cork first and his hand touched, how do we record it in the history books)

[rocketbaz]

In my opinion a trick isnt landed until you do it without touching.

same

[Martial Way]

If the trick was intended for landing on ones feet and not using the hands then technically I suppose it would be considered as an incorrectly done trick since you did in fact lose balance in order to save yourself from falling. In any other "acrobatic sport" It would be deemed unnacceptable but then again this isn't a normal sport and has many variables. Maybe Juji or someone should do a write up about it. The different steps to a trick and what would in general be constituted as a completed and properly done trick. Might make for a good sticky thread.

I mean aside from preference for style I'm sure most twist, flips and kicks are intended to illustrate the ability one has at controlling their own body and not rely on the hands to maintain balance. The controlled chaos from all of these tricks is miracle of human physiology. Thats what seems to make tricking so amazing, the ability to push your mind a body to the limits of what physics otherwise says you can't do.

TAKE THAT PHYSICS!!! WE CHALLENGE YOU AND YOUR UNIVERSAL LAW!!! F U!!