ATT: people who do martial arts.

[TKD_Andy]

Traditional forms are the most important part of martial arts.

those who do not agree, what is your evidence? (if any)


if you dont understand why forms are important, please dont contribute :good:

if you disagree, what IS the most important thing in martial arts?

[jo>.<el]

wheres your evidence that it IS the most important part of martial arts, because i dissagree, its just a little test to move you through the belts, being good at patterns doesent mean anything, if your talking about fighting that is, or do you mean doing martial arts for the sake of doing patterns, boo forms are gay and boring

[Dragonfly]

(Non-contributory post)

With traditional forms, you basically mean katas? Stuff like Bassai-dai? Empi? Or am I out bicycling here :eh:

[[RozoN]]

forms are important part of martial arts.
1. It's the same as drilling single kick/punch/block
2. It makes you used to combining strikes and blocks in "unexpected" ways. So you can combine them more easily and freely. The more complex and different combinations you can do, the easier will it be for you to freely apply strikes and blocks, in say a sparring match.
3. On some level, forms are a practice for a real life situation. Maybe not as applicable in the real life situation, but it teaches you to move around and show how you can apply different strikes and blocks.

Whether a form is useful or not for fighting or self defense, is not the point. That's a question you should be asking for the whole martial art discipline. After all, forms are just a combination of what the discipline teaches. For example: mma is not more effective than TKD because it doesn't have forms, but because it's strikes and blocks are more effective in a fight, than TKD strikes. Not to mention that mma and the likes also have some basic punch/kick patterns that they teach.

I don't do martial arts anymore btw....

[TKD_Andy]

wheres your evidence that it IS the most important part of martial arts,because i dissagree,

traditional forms (katas etc) are the only link martial arts have to the original teachings. They are the purest techniques that have filtered down over the centuries, and though they may have been altered and changed for aesthetics and ease of practice, they remain the core of the art.

Everything you learn in a martial art can be derived from forms.

Everything you need to know about a martial art is contained within the forms (especially when it comes to self-defense in all its forms).

Forms are the easiest way to condition yourself into bodily responses which are easily applied to self defense.

Forms are the best way to maintain correct form in all traditional moves.

the list goes on....

its just a little test to move you through the belts, being good at patterns doesent mean anything,

*facepalm*

being good at forms means everything. A form is something that you have to work and and perfect to make look good. If you suck at forms, it means you just can't be bothered to practice them because you're too naive to see any benefit in them, which itself is a failure on your own part.

Excelling in forms means you have taken the time to perfect the execution of techniques that are more effective than 90% of the modern "self-defense" people try to palm off for £50 a class.

if your talking about fighting that is, or do you mean doing martial arts for the sake of doing patterns, boo forms are gay and boring

this is the classic example of someone who has absolutely no clue about the martial art they practice (if you even practice one).

People who value forms value the true nature of martial arts.

[jo>.<el]

i havent stayed in 1 martial art, but i have tryed to learn as much as i could about martial arts as a whole, im sure forms have their benifits, but they wont make you a good tricker nor a good fighter,, but i will agree with you that it is an excellent way to condition your body and building muscle memory, im just not a big fan of them, id rather trick and fight then do forms

[Torre]

I agree, though to find the application of the moves in the forms (and I mean the real, usable ones) takes some serious research and creative thinking if you lack good instruction regarding that. I'm just getting into bunkai (don't know the TKD term), and it's fascinating.

And for the potential idiot posters, yes, you need to supplement it with live full contact sparring, pad and bag work, conditioning and all that jazz.

[TKD_Andy]

i havent stayed in 1 martial art, but i have tryed to learn as much as i could about martial arts as a whole,

no offense man but its not a suprise you have the views you do then.

im sure forms have their benifits, but they wont make you a good tricker nor a good fighter,, but i will agree with you that it is an excellent way to condition your body and building muscle memory, im just not a big fan of them, id rather trick and fight then do forms

what have forms got to do with tricks...? :eh:

also what do you define "fighting" as? Like MMA?

Because I've actually sat with my TKD instructor and we've pointed out at least 10 different positions/actions in an MMA match that are exact replicas of traditional moves in forms.

Dont feel bad, its just your lack of knowledge that leads you to these conclusions :good:

[Feilongtobi]

I think you're right. I train kung fu and Arnis, and I have the same opinions toward forms and traditional movements ( My Arnis-System doesn't include real " forms", but short sequences of traditional movements).
Forms condition your body train, your body control and more stuff, but the most important thing for me: forms are the soul of the martial arts you practice, to say it's stupid or not necessary to train them... don't know, like you said, it just shows ignorance ...

[tsuchinoko]

All I'm gonna say is that forms look super cool when they're combined with tricks

[TheRave]

forms/sets.. whatever you want to call them are for Conditioning purposes. In my martial Art anyway..

[Ewasiuk]

Traditional forms was the main aspect in Shotokan when I did it a couple of years back. My technique was superb and I could have went for my first dan test in the next year but I wanted to do Wu Shu because I was getting bored of karate. Now that it's been a couple of years since I've done anything, my mind can perfectly execute the movements and technicalities of the forms but my body doesn't follow so well. I feel kind of like a beginner/intermediate student who's just getting the just of what it's really about.

Maybe someday I'll start traditional martial arts again.

[Torre]

forms/sets.. whatever you want to call them are for Conditioning purposes. In my martial Art anyway..

What style do you do?

[n3m3s1s]

I wouldn't say the forms are the most important thing, but knowing how to use the techniques properly in a fight.

Forms teach you proper technique, and good basics = :good:
But being good at forms does not necessarily mean you would survive in a fight.

I'd say the important thing in martial arts is to be able to defend yourself.

Where I come from there seems be a little too much focus on forms and to little about the application of techniques and self-defense.

[TKD_Andy]

i felt this way a few years ago when I first got my black belt, and proper pattern application was becoming more widespread.

[quote]Maybe someday I'll start traditional martial arts again.

please do.

I really want to start doing Aikido, Shotokan Karate and Kendo, i think they'd be awesome to learn.

[Torre]

Kendo and shotokan seem to be a weird choice to do beside TKD. Any particular reason for any of those?

[Feilongtobi]

before you learn Kendo, search for a Kenjutsu school and learn Kenjutsu:tongue:
Kendo is traditional, but it's an more modern form of japanese swordfighting.
Kenjutsu is the original, old way. I am telling you that because I know some Kendoka who changed to Kenjutsu after a few practices.

[TKD_Andy]

Kendo and shotokan seem to be a weird choice to do beside TKD. Any particular reason for any of those?

because Kendo/Kenjutsu (I was tempted to put kenjutsu in the OP but tbh its more likely that i'd find a Kendo school) would be awesome to learn, i've always been interested in swordfighting.

And Shotokan because thats what most of TKD is based on anyway :good:

[Ewasiuk]

i felt this way a few years ago when I first got my black belt, and proper pattern application was becoming more widespread.



please do.

I really want to start doing Aikido, Shotokan Karate and Kendo, i think they'd be awesome to learn.

As for me as well. Japanese principles in martial arts are very interesting to learn and I think people find that certain principles from one art tie well into another.

[Torre]

Props for cross training intentions :) I just took up muay thai and I'm aching to do judo but I don't have the money right now :eh: Not to mention some Filipino stuff for knife fighting...

[HaoTwo]

I've always thought forms were a bit useless but after reading a few posts I can see the value of them. Good for basics, the history, muscle memory and what nots.

I dabble in a bit of Wing Chun and I'm a huge fan of Bruce Lee/Jeet Kune Do. Wing Chun for me just seems like the most straight forward way to land a hit on somebody. Things like Ju-Jitsu seem very handy too.

[Torre]

I'd say the most straightforward style for learning how to hit somebody is boxing.

[HaoTwo]

Removes the whole process of legs, not cool.

I find giving a nice side kick to the knee cap *extremely* effective when they're busy trying to hit me up top. Works everytime against my boxing obsessed friend.

[Safari]

This is an interesting subject and I will end up discussing with myself and come up with nothing.

Anyways, I see that traditional forms and Katas are as you say, andy "The purest technique we got" but we don't know wether the form was changed a 100 yrs ago. I think that even Katas will be evolved, maybe without even noticing it, this will make it less pure over time, we might not even notice the change in it. Nothing that's activly practiced stays the same over a thousand years..

As you can now see I've argued with myself without coming up with nothing, but hey it made me think abvout stuff.

[Anubis]

Traditional forms are the most important part of martial arts.

those who do not agree, what is your evidence? (if any)


if you dont understand why forms are important, please dont contribute :good:

if you disagree, what IS the most important thing in martial arts?

though i don't directly agree i can see where you are going with this. all the best competitors with seemingly flawless technique like rudy reynon, ben brown, and james solis have really good traditional forms. pretty much everything the martial arts has to teach you can be seen in their traditional forms.

[Ewasiuk]

I'd say the most straightforward style for learning how to hit somebody is boxing.

For punching. That's all that boxing focuses on for striking and since it's been around since ancient Greece, it's methods have been developed for very long periods of time.

For kicking and striking thai boxing is the best for "fighting" in my opinion.

[Megabuster]

(I haven't read this whole thread completely so I might have missed something important.)

Martial arts is commonly known as a way of learning self discipline, self defense, and how to express yourself. Traditional forms encompass all three aspects. The way each person goes about a form can show traits like confidence or laziness easily. The self defense aspect is loose as most forms are self defense techniques used... differently (need a better description). Self discipline takes care of the loose ends nicely. It takes discipline to conform to traditional forms in particular as you must follow the rules rather than make your own. It takes discipline to practice techniques to be able to use them aesthetically rather than simply to hurt or protect. I believe this is also why elder martial artists concentrate more on form and technique than anything else. Although, it might only seem like it because of all the stereotyping. >_> That's my two cents on this.

[Cubbiehobbits]

I believe it's a good idea to understand the difference between forms, as well as the practice of a single form.

Forms produce muscle memory after being practiced for long periods of time. When forms are matched with proper technique and practiced over an accumulation of years, the movements themselves not only improve in minute body adjustments but also allow for the application of form in real life situations.

Although these days a lot of forms seem like "fluff" to the untrained eye, the origin of the form may have been more toward real life situation than to being judged on execution in a patterned response.

Take tai chi for example. Tai chi is heavily based on defensive martial arts, being about to use the opponent's force against him or her (yeah, right, just him for all you manly men). The execution of tai chi forms are practiced slow and are meant to be practiced regularly, in order to build muscle memory for applications in real life confrontations later.

Being able to tell the difference between different forms is also important. In order to show proper respect to certain martial artists, it's often a good idea to research the different details of certain forms so as not to embarrass oneself. For example, in tai chi there are five main branches: Chen, Sun, Wu, Wu Hau, Yan. Each style has its differences, and when compared in a line during tournament, it is almost as if you are watching five different martial art forms (For example, Chen is the most dynamic of the five branches.)

I'm not sure my argument about round kicks would work here; it seems more like technique differences than form differences.

There's a point in there somewhere.

[Badams]

I think sparring is the most important aspect in martial arts. Because its the most effective way to simulate and practice in combat conditions.

I think the primary goal of martial arts should be to teach people to fight and defend themselves.

And I think there is a pretty big difference between learning self defense and fighting also.

I enjoy doing forms but I am pretty skeptical of their usefulness.

[Megabuster]

I think sparring is the most important aspect in martial arts. Because its the most effective way to simulate and practice in combat conditions.

I think the primary goal of martial arts should be to teach people to fight and defend themselves.

And I think there is a pretty big difference between learning self defense and fighting also.

I enjoy doing forms but I am pretty skeptical of their usefulness.

*Don't read any of this if you are afraid of long incoherent paragraphs. Most of this will be off the top of my head.*

Likewise, it could be argued that everything in life isn't just about how useful it is. If it was, why even bother with martial arts or extracurriculars? Heck, why bother with tricking either. Life would be simple: you have a gun for self defense and the highest paying job and only buy food, water, etc. Plus, the job would be something that directly benefits society, no sports or musical or artistic jobs. Hobbies wouldn't be needed either. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I still feel that discipline is the best thing modern day martial arts offers, especially in societies where you might not be fighting with others physically everyday just for survival, and where strong weapons can override almost all training. Discipline is in learning the nuances of each move. When you practice forms, you experience each move for more than just what it does. You often experiment more when your set goal isn't just to deal the most damage. Once you know the best technique to dealing the greatest bit of damage, all that's left is to learn counters to that and so on. This isn't very interesting, and creativity is limited to what's practical. With forms, there are rules that limit you, but you also get to pick how you do each technique. Your goal isn't just practicality; you are searching for the "best" techniques. As we all know, best is relative to each person. That's where the creativity starts. Do you want to find the most awesome looking way to do the form? Or are you looking for the fine line between useful and good looking technique? Would you rather look smooth and flow with your technique? Or would you rather use perfect stances throughout the form.

My experiences with forms have gotten me thinking about them for a while. I might be overthinking it, but I have what I've seen to vouch for me. When grading forms, I see them as a reflection upon the person doing them. Often when I see that a person has lousy form, I mentally take note that this person isn't feeling anything and isn't trying. Many times the people who really give it their best to do forms well are the most passionate and capable fighters that I've seen. While some people might go over the top with form aesthetics and neglect true battle skill, I still feel that they go hand in hand and that you really need the structure of forms and the freedom of mere combat to work together as in symbiosis.

Ok, I added a whole lot more than I thought I would. tl;dr version: forms are important for what they show about a person; this can go beyond the limits of mere practicality.

[Stallion]

forms are ridiculous of course haha

[jo>.<el]

LOOOL bahaha , what ever u say budday , i watch fat kids and n00bs train forms, any one with real ability doesent need to waste there time with such things, ur fighting reflex come from sparring not forms, im not bashing forms, just saying theres better ways of training

[Martial Way]

Training in forms is essential to the martial arts that have them. I haven't read every response in this thread but I've trained in Taekwondo for 8 years and in Hapkido for about 4 years. I practice my forms virtually every day regardless of whether or not I have time to do other training.

Every move in the style the is contained within the forms. No of course you can not use a form on an opponent but there are so many things that are apparant to me now that would be applicable in a fight. Things that would actually help to save ones life. Things I wouldn't have noticed a couple of years ago.

Not to sound mystical but there is a certain element that the style itself reveals to you, that is what you are able to see, if you are focused on truly understanding the intentions behind each move. These moves are applicable in innumerable ways. Andy is right, there is nothing more critical than forms practice.

[Martial Way]

LOOOL bahaha , what ever u say budday , i watch fat kids and n00bs train forms, any one with real ability doesent need to waste there time with such things, ur fighting reflex come from sparring not forms, im not bashing forms, just saying theres better ways of training


Wow, making that many incorrect statements, are you just purposely saying that many uneducated things to get a rise out of us? Oye...you're offering this up on a silver platter.

Kids are kids...they aren't fighters, warriors etc. Honestly I don't think children belong in martial arts, it gives them the false impression they can fight when in reality martial arts here in the united states and other western cultures is not intended to teach children how to fight, just to learn discipline and to look good for parents.

Also, there are plenty of people I know who are good fighters who do practice their forms and would contribute their forms to their fighting prowess

Lastly, sparring is just sparring...not real fighting. To say sparring is really fighting is absurd..sorry.

[Megabuster]

^^Amen to that. I've talked to many people who seemed to have obtained nothing from martial arts. A majority of these people are children/people who seem to act like it. I've found that many people return to martial arts regretting that they ever left or didn't start earlier. But now I realize, many of these people wouldn't understand the purpose of what they are doing as a kid. As for the rest of that post, sooooo true.

This is why I often refuse to spar: it's almost nothing like actual fighting. There are so many rules about things like grabbing and the point system in TKD that commercialized sparring is nearly useless. You might say to try something else like MMA or Muy Thai then. Well, that still leaves most martial arts with these purposes: discipline and self expression, which I've written ad nauseum about already.

[Martial Way]

Well I do think sparring is important I try to as much as possible but all things have their place. I don't consider sparring actual fighting but it def. helps. You just have to put things into context.
I prefer going to different schools and sparring the students from other styles or just different training methods. That seems to be very productive. As long as you stay true to your core martial art.

MMA is not real fighting either for that matter. its kicking, punching and submission wrestling pretty much. Hasn't been a single time when watching it over the last decade that I haven't thought of certain attacks to do to the other guy if I were in the same position. Also, I've trained with guys who have done MMA for many years now and there are clearly MANY weaknesses within the style...just like any style.

[TKD_Andy]

LOOOL bahaha , what ever u say budday , i watch fat kids and n00bs train forms, any one with real ability doesent need to waste there time with such things, ur fighting reflex come from sparring not forms, im not bashing forms, just saying theres better ways of training

my god.

you've just proved you're a complete retard.

I think sparring is the most important aspect in martial arts. Because its the most effective way to simulate and practice in combat conditions.

so putting on a load of pads, getting a referee and establishing an area to fight in is the best way to simulate actual combat? Incorrect

Sparring also has nothing to do with traditional martial arts. Put anyone in a TKD suit and smother them with pads and they can "spar" but they can't do forms.


I think the primary goal of martial arts should be to teach people to fight and defend themselves.

that is exactly what forms do. People are just too naive to see it.


And I think there is a pretty big difference between learning self defense and fighting also.

sure, self defense is being able to effectively deal with an aggressor in a timely and effective manner and fighting is..... ?


I enjoy doing forms but I am pretty skeptical of their usefulness.

do more reading and research on them my friend :good:

[WiKiD]

I disagree, the most important part of martial arts is the mental arts, not the physical

[Steve]

Traditional forms are not the most important part of martial arts. A normative statement (traditional forms are the most important part) cannot logically be concluded from a positive statement (traditional forms are the only maintained techniques), even if that positive statement is indeed true. This logical fallacy describes why traditional forms are not the most important part of martial arts. Ultimately, there is no most important thing in martial arts, besides perhaps that a set of combat techniques are involved, since that's what defines martial arts.

[Steve]

And no, Andy, you don't need to justify your faggy POON-se to make us believe that Taekwondo is worth a shit. Forms may help you develop balance and technique, but not the kind of balance and technique that is involved in anything but a pretentious dance.

[Steve]

But yes yes I know, I'm missing the deep inner meaning of true traditional martial arts with balls, I know, I'm so narrow-minded and unenlightened, fuck me

[TheRave]

Torre - I study Kuk Sool Won

[Martial Way]

Steve, not sure who you were directing that towards. I just know I never said it was the most important thing, I said it was essential.
I did say nothing is more critical but the intention wasn't that it was the only and singular thing that makes training complete. I should have chosen my words more carefully there so I'll give you that. I didn't notice how it came across until this morning when I just woke up, lol. The intention was that it is critical for forms to be used in conjunction with all the other training methods training although if everything else was stripped away I would def want to have the forms available to me personally.

[Martial Way]

And no, Andy, you don't need to justify your faggy POON-se to make us believe that Taekwondo is worth a shit. Forms may help you develop balance and technique, but not the kind of balance and technique that is involved in anything but a pretentious dance.

Ouch...

To be honest its unsurprising that you would view things that way. As I'm sure this has been beaten to death on this forum before but most TKD schools are horrible...period. I have zero argument for that. They care about esteem of the school, money, and making parents think their kids are tough because they break through 3/4 inch pine wood boards while shreaking their heads off. The instructors of these schools have unlikely dedicated their actual lives to this training and on top of it all they got into for all of the wrong reasons or the prospect of making money was such a wonderful one that they were willing to sell their soul and their style down the drain for the sake of making money.
So these men and women who teach never really learned it all and therefore they have been passing down their half-learned knowledge to other generations, who in turned passed theirs down.

I was fortunate with my master. He graduated from Yong-In University and was a body guard for the korean president. His school though was never particularly large maybe 50 students..60 at most. His fighting prowess and knowledge is unquestionable although nobody is perfect, he has become rather lazy over the last 6 to 7 years, so it can be like pulling teeth to get him to help you at time. Other than that he is a more than suitable instructor, in that I've been fortunate.

Anyway, I guess really the only way to prove that forms are useful is do them over and over again, which to many seem boring. There is a really amazing book that if anyone has time to read these days should pick up.

Living the Martial Way by Forrest Morgan

I haven't read it in a year or so, there is actually no relation between that book and my name. Maybe it was subconscious hmmmm? I just noticed it when I was writing the title of the book LAWLZ but yeah guys its a fantastic book. Andy, by the way you sound this book is exactly what you would like and those who I've let read my copy of it have really changed their minds about their training.

reading = hardcore

[Augenatic]

Traditional forms/taeguks/katas are fucking hardcore.

[Martial Way]

Augenatic, who is that guy smoking the cigar? Or is that a cigar?

[DarkXacreD]

First of all, the fact that I am stating the following things blatantly imply that they are my opinions and shouldn't be taken for an objective interpretation.

There, now I don't have to say "IMO" a billion times.

---------------------------------

Forms are at best, extremely abstract and condensed representations of techniques that can be applied to combat. These techniques still need to be broken down and practiced on a resisting opponent in order to be of any use.

With that said, it can be argued that it would be more efficient just to practice the techniques as they are applied in a combat situation, instead of going through the movements in an abstract fashion. This is the approach that many combat sports have taken; instead of doing forms, they learn one technique at a time, and practice against someone who is actively trying to hit them back.

However, I do believe that forms are good for understanding the basic principles of most techniques and kinetic linking. For example, if I hadn't done form-based martial arts before, I probably wouldn't be using my hips nearly as efficiently in any given martial arts technique, or be picking up and understanding techniques as easily as I can now. I believe this is because forms allowed me to learn, experiment with, and understand techniques without the stress of another person trying to hit me in the face.

Combat sports' equivalent of this would be shadowboxing or heavybag work. But people usually end up pretending that they are fighting their mirror image or the punching bag instead of trying to understand their techniques, which nullifies the effect that practicing techniques in front of a mirror is supposed to have: it gives you good form.

To sum it all up, drilling techniques by themselves will help you understand them and give you good form. Hitting a punching bag or throwing a dummy/compliant opponent will help you understand how to generate power properly with a given technique. Using them against a resisting opponent will help you understand how to ultimately use the techniques. Hence, apart from passing on traditions, forms only serve to achieve the very first goal of a martial artist. While a basic understanding and a "manuscript" of abstract movements that are etched into your memory may be useful at first, ultimately it doesn't serve the goal of a martial art, assuming that goal is to be able to fight for one's right to survival or to control a given physical conflict.

-----------------------------------

Now, if you practice martial arts forms solely for appreciation of their aesthetic attributes, then you might think you can get away with just going through the movements and drilling them like a dance choreography. But until you understand the full applicative process of a given technique, it's unlikely that you'll be able to execute the movement properly, even in its abstract form. Some people are able to understand the practical implications of a movement just by practicing it repeatedly, but it can't hurt to actually go through the partner drills and sparring to understand the move better, and improve the intent and intensity of the move when you're doing your form.

That said, I believe that the origin of martial arts techniques being the forms themselves is very much debatable. Some people insist that the applicative techniques are derived from the forms themselves. So some guy creates a form, that in and of itself is basically a choreography of movements, and then from that, he creates a combat-effective martial art? Would it not make more sense that the founder of a given martial art had learned to fight, and had been fighting for a number of years, understood the way martial arts worked for him, specifically--subjectively--and then created an abstract form in order to teach others and spread knowledge about his own understanding of martial arts? Look at Mas Oyama; he learned martial arts, and then found a way for martial arts to work best for him, and tested it against opponents actively trying to defeat him before establishing a martial art and creating forms to be taught to others.

Just as a simple analogy, people don't just write a textbook, and then start teaching out of it; they learn about a given subject, and teach it with others' texts as reference, before they believe they've understood it enough for themselves and decide to write a book on the particular subject, from which others can teach with reference to. And even when others have learned from the textbook, it isn't the end-all-and-be-all of their knowledge; they still have to apply it in whatever aspects of life it pertains to and see what works for themselves.

In a final conclusion, I believe that sticking strictly to textbooks, or a martial arts form, will only confine one to those forms and not allow one to adapt in the present moment, which is always changing.

[Ryan Murray]

Andy what do you make of the philosophy of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do? Is it incompatible with your ideas about forms?

I think the most important part of martial art should be the ability to avoid a fight. I never want to have to use the things that I've learned in Kung Fu.

[Swartz]

Bruce Lee was gay.

[Badams]

so putting on a load of pads, getting a referee and establishing an area to fight in is the best way to simulate actual combat? Incorrect

More so than practicing a form.

And Headgear+Gloves+Shin guards+Mouthpiece doesn't really = a lot of pads.


Sparring also has nothing to do with traditional martial arts. Put anyone in a TKD suit and smother them with pads and they can "spar" but they can't do forms.

Put anyone in a TKD suit and have them memorize a form and they can "do a form". Just because someone knows the moves doesn't mean they are doing it right. Same goes for sparring.



that is exactly what forms do. People are just too naive to see it.

Perhaps. But there are much more effective ways to learn to fight and defend yourself than practicing forms.



sure, self defense is being able to effectively deal with an aggressor in a timely and effective manner and fighting is..... ?

My idea of self defense is protecting yourself from getting hurt which may or may not involve aggressively attacking an opponent. I mostly think of self defense as trying to escape a situation unharmed.

To me, fighting involves aggressively attacking while also defending yourself with the intention of incapacitating your opponent.

The difference is in one situation you are trying to just escape unharmed which might not involve becoming the aggressor. To me, fighting always involves aggressively attacking at some point. In a fight you are trying to defeat the opponent, not escape the situation unharmed.

[DarkXacreD]

So you're saying fighting is beating the fuck out of somebody and staying there, and self defense is beating the fuck out of somebody and running away.

Sounds about right to me. XD

[jo>.<el]

, S MY D :)

[Badams]

So you're saying fighting is beating the fuck out of somebody and staying there, and self defense is beating the fuck out of somebody and running away.

Sounds about right to me. XD

lol thats not what i said at all :punched:



The difference is in one situation you are trying to just escape unharmed which might not involve becoming the aggressor. To me, fighting always involves aggressively attacking at some point. In a fight you are trying to defeat the opponent, not escape the situation unharmed.

With self defense, you are just trying to escape unharmed. Getting away from a situation unharmed does not always require you to hurt your opponent.

Lets say you are taking your nightly walk down a dark alley and the boogey man jumps out of a shadow onto your back and starts choking you. You could:

A) Defend yourself- by throwing him off your back and running away while screaming like a little girl.

B) Fight him- by throwing him off your back, repeatedly kicking him while he is on the ground, evading his feeble attempts to tackle you, knocking him back on to the ground, mounting and beating him unconscious, then brutally raping him

In summary: Self defense= making sure you don't get hurt. Fighting= Making sure you hurt/defeat your opponent.

[Ryan Murray]

Oh now I remember why we don't have a martial arts board anymore.

[ninjitsian]

finally someone who at least understands the tradition of martial arts. jeez. forms are EVERYTHING. if your forms suck, it means you possess little to no knowledge of your art. if youre good at your forms, you should understand what every movement is applied for. anyone can imitate a movement, but to understand them is something completely different..... ill get back to this post when i go home.

[Badams]

Oh now I remember why we don't have a martial arts board anymore.

It was closed because I am the authority on marshal arts here. What I say is right and there is no need for discussion.

If you have a problem with what I said, I will beat you up.

So shut up. You are just a gymnast anyways. :ogre:

[Ryan Murray]

Guilty as charged...

[Feilongtobi]

A) Defend yourself- by throwing him off your back and running away while screaming like a little girl.

B) Fight him- by throwing him off your back, repeatedly kicking him while he is on the ground, evading his feeble attempts to tackle you, knocking him back on to the ground, mounting and beating him unconscious, then brutally raping him

In summary: Self defense= making sure you don't get hurt. Fighting= Making sure you hurt your opponent.


My god, even my old chinese Kung fu Master would punch you in the face for that statement. and he's the most peaceable person I know :dead:

Self defense is not about running away, neither make sure just you won't get hurt, it's also about control the person who offends you and in some ways also make sure you don't break all his bones or kill him accidentally ( that's what I get taught, and what martial arts is also about)

[Badams]

My god, even my old chinese Kung fu Master would punch you in the face for that statement. and he's the most peaceable person I know :dead:

Self defense is not about running away, neither make sure just you won't get hurt, it's also about control the person who offends you and in some ways also make sure you don't break all his bones or kill him accidentally ( that's what I get taught, and what martial arts is also about)

haha well first, I would beat your kung fu master up, claim his dojo, and teach all you weakling students the true way of the dark hadou.

second, i never said self defense was about running away. escaping a situation unharmed does not = run away. And I have already said that if you are just practicing self defense its not always necessary to hurt your opponent.

I think you paid too much attention to my examples( which were just jokes). I was trying to show the difference between defending yourself without excessively hurting the attacker(self defense) and defending yourself while aggressively attacking & defeating your opponent(fighting).

[Martial Way]

It would be cool to have an MA section on here again. Were there too many people getting pissy at each other because of it? It would make for some interesting discussions although I'm sure ones that that had been repeated a million times but that may go for the rest of this site too.

[Torre]

As much as I'd love to have some MA discussion, I don't think the subforum should be brought back.

[Feilongtobi]

haha well first, I would beat your kung fu master up, claim his dojo, and teach all you weakling students the true way of the dark hadou.

second, i never said self defense was about running away. escaping a situation unharmed does not = run away. And I have already said that if you are just practicing self defense its not always necessary to hurt your opponent.

I think you paid too much attention to my examples( which were just jokes). I was trying to show the difference between defending yourself without excessively hurting the attacker(self defense) and defending yourself while aggressively attacking & defeating your opponent(fighting).


haha ok I really paid too much attention to your examples, but don't say such things like " running away like a girl" :tongue: cause I heard this too much from stupid persons who think that martial arts is just a dance or something and UFC and MMA are the only way of fighting or defending yourself.
I just wanna point out that you learn in SD not just to defend yourself, but also to avoid to hurt your opponents and control them.

[TiVo]

In my head, forms are just to uphold MA traditions.
There are better ways to condition and learn Self Defense in martial arts than focusing on forms so why gimp yourself unless you really want to pay homage to traditions and all that philosophical crap.

The most important part of MA is...drilling.

[TKD_Andy]

whilst im glad that there are a few people on here who actually have the intellectual capacity to understand why forms are so incredibly important, I feel that it is a total waste of my (and everyone else who is of the same opinion)'s time to try and convince the idiotic self-deluded people on here otherwise.

Its hilarious though, the reasons that people have stated that forms are not important are actually all reasons why they are, they just cannot see it for various reasons.

Im not going to try and convince you that forms are the most important part, because they just are, there is no argument involved. You either acknowledge this fact or you can go back to eating your fried chicken and watching UFC telling yourself that you're right "cos you are".

If any of the people who disagree with me on here would do even the slightest bit of actual research on the subject they'd find out how wrong they were. I guess its like religion, people are too busy pushing their heads further into the sand to ever look at contradicting evidence.


---------------------

@ the bruce lee question: I think that Bruce Lee did alot of good things for MA, and and alot of bad things. JKD is basically a martial art that lacks and historical basis, its a "what you see is what you get" martial art, and should be seen through the same lens as muay thai etc. Its not a bad martial art, however its very basic.

----------------------

I will say one final thing on this matter:

If you had someone who has just taken up a martial art, and taught them forms and forms alone, and actually told them what the moves were for (instead of the watered down applications for their own safety and the safety of others) while they were learning them, they would be a much, much more effective at self defense and fighting as a whole.

[TiVo]

If you had someone who has just taken up a martial art, and taught them forms and forms alone, and actually told them what the moves were for (instead of the watered down applications for their own safety and the safety of others) while they were learning them, they would be a much, much more effective at self defense and fighting as a whole.

How? Care to relay some evidence? (too lazy to look over a long thread). =).

[Feilongtobi]

In my head, forms are just to uphold MA traditions.
There are better ways to condition and learn Self Defense in martial arts than focusing on forms so why gimp yourself unless you really want to pay homage to traditions and all that philosophical crap.

The most important part of MA is...drilling.

no offense, but practice some north shaolin forms with deep stances and jumps, do it with heart and balls, and you will see there is no better way to condition your body ( to achieve the goals of this style)

[TiVo]

I could just say to go practice some wrestling and you'll come out conditioned as fuck yet, they do no forms.

[Hadyn]

Some martial arts people pissed me off today, I had just been to the gym and they were in the changing rooms, it was 2 really fat dumb yellow belts talking about martial arts. They saw I was having a protein shake then their conversation was something like "ohh I'd never have those protein drinks, I dont wanna get big and slow I need to be fast for my sparring" They're probably slow already. Useless post but meh.

[TiVo]

Some martial arts people pissed me off today, I had just been to the gym and they were in the changing rooms, it was 2 really fat dumb yellow belts talking about martial arts. They saw I was having a protein shake then their conversation was something like "ohh I'd never have those protein drinks, I dont wanna get big and slow I need to be fast for my sparring" They're probably slow already. Useless post but meh.

They should die.

[Feilongtobi]

I could just say to go practice some wrestling and you'll come out conditioned as fuck yet, they do no forms.


but there is a big difference between conditioning for wrestling and conditioning for Taekwondo, Wushu, and other martial arts. ( Also said that in my post)

[Badams]

haha you are a terrible thread host TKD Andy. You just can't call your guests deluded, fried chicken eating, UFC lovers lol.

you asked us to come in disagree and present our arguments. Then you just decide you don't want to talk about it anymore.

[[RozoN]]

I think the most important part of martial art should be the ability to avoid a fight.
In that case, they should learn people how to run fast, give wallets without resistance and generally be a good punching bag.

Bruce Lee was gay.

Correct

[Badams]

I'm never coming to one of TKD Andy's threads again. Hes a big jerk. And the music was terrible.

[[RozoN]]

http://racetalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/crybaby.jpg

[Papa Lazarou]

Forms are okay. But, apart from the "historical" aspect (arguable), they're just like shadowboxing. Useful, but not everything.

And the overemphasis on forms in many "martial arts" makes those arts inefficient for developing actual combat ability of course.

Not to mention the fact that "martial art" is a term so broad that it's near useless.


Also, Andy, you seriously need to cool off on the rhetoric haha. This "don't bother replying unless you agree" stuff is really... quite obviously bad.


I might do some specifics actually...

Im not going to try and convince you that forms are the most important part, because they just are, there is no argument involved. You either acknowledge this fact or you can go back to eating your fried chicken and watching UFC telling yourself that you're right "cos you are".

=/


If any of the people who disagree with me on here would do even the slightest bit of actual research on the subject they'd find out how wrong they were.
Links then?

Something tells me this topic hasn't been studied scientifically haha.



Edit: 1,000 posts and I'm still an enigma.

[Federico00]

my thoughts on this is, first the question is too broad because their are numerous styles and everyone teaches them differently as well as learns them in their own way. As far as overall I do believe traditional forms do help build strong legs and a good character of martial arts but as I said every style is different in its own way. Honestly the question is just too poor and controversial. I have been doing MA for 14 years and their is just no right answer to this question.

[Federico00]

There just is no most important aspect of martial arts.

[gabrielb]

There just is no most important aspect of martial arts.

i miss you federico...lol. dont really care about the topic, miss visiting ur school also haha.

[Federico00]

shit yea, there has been some good times, I just miss tricking

[Steve]

I'm very carefully and nervously avoiding reading Andy's no doubt harsh response to my posts

[*J-WALL*]

I'm very carefully and nervously avoiding reading Andy's no doubt harsh response to my posts

You don't need to worry Steve he never crafted a direct response to your post, just called everyone who disagreed with him stupid. :tongue:

[TKD_Andy]

people are mistaking my personal temperament with the validity of my argument.

The arguments that people have presented to the contrary of my own are ill-founded and if the people who presented them did even the slightest bit of research they would see how wrong they are.

My frustrations are justified seeing as the people who are wrong, and feel that I am being obtuse over the matter are the ones least likely to actually go and do the research because its going to prove them wrong, and they lack the moral fiber to come back, apologise and admit they were wrong.

also to clarify: it does say in the first post that if you dont understand the actual importance of forms, then dont contribute. There are alot of people in this thread who have done exactly the opposite, and their ignorance screams from every word they post.

[Badams]

forms lack a variety of stressors of actual an actual fight(fear, a moving/attacking/defending opponent, fatigue etc.)

it really doesn't make much sense to say that forms are better practice for learning how to fight than sparring.

I guess you practice martial arts for self discipline and forms might be good for that, but for learning how to fight, forms aren't the most effective.

[Papa Lazarou]

...it does say in the first post that if you dont understand the actual importance of forms, then dont contribute...
Well that remark doesn't exactly encourage people to join in if they disagree does it?

It assumes that forms are important, without defining any relevant terms. Boxers do alright without "forms" - are they martial artists or not?


And if there's "research", link it. I doubt this has been studied in any conclusive way though.

[Martial Way]

Perhaps he was encouraging disscussing the positives of forms training. Plus I believe he was wanting people who actually have done it consistently and have some basis for an actual arguement and not based on hearsay. Those who claim to have experience in it but did not really like it or give it a chance from the beginning don't count...when you start out doing something with anything less than 100% deisre to understand it then your not going to benefit from it very much if at all. It either all or nothing.

There are many view points to forms training besides "Forms are useful VS Forms are useless"

[Skippy]

Why did you make the thread if you're going to disagree with everyone who says otherwise? did you just want a thread where everyone says "Yes Andy, you're right" or something haha?

No jab at you Andy, jus' sayin.

[dpitlock]

I didn't read anything but the title.

Thank you for stating the obvious you whiny fuck.

[Steve]

Andy, you're arguing for a dogmatic nuance of a martial art that isn't even as old as the Boy Scouts, for forms barely older than we are - both of which are typically practiced by preteens. It's not some kind of magical tradition, and even if it were, it cannot be logically argued that that has any importance to martial arts. Now I've done some research and I've reached my conclusion: you're a butthurt pompous cunt who is mad that people don't buy into the culture that you think is essential to martial arts, repeating arguments that have no logical reason, as was pointed out the last several times you used them, and will continue to talk about your adolescent dance class forever even though the martial arts forum was removed mostly because of your faggotry months or maybe even years ago.

Sources: real life, my black belt, history of Taekwondo, logic, reason, Tricks Tutorials

[Martial Way]

Andy, you're arguing for a dogmatic nuance of a martial art that isn't even as old as the Boy Scouts, for forms barely older than we are - both of which are typically practiced by preteens. It's not some kind of magical tradition, and even if it were, it cannot be logically argued that that has any importance to martial arts.


Well, I agree it certainly is anything but magical but it does hold plenty of basis and you will find many who agree that it does, perhaps not on a tricking forum but oh well. This site may not be the best place to have this discussion in general. If you did have a sub forum for martial arts stuff then sure but it just seems like a pointless one here.

Also, I doubt the age of a style dictates its usefullness if practiced correctly. All martial arts were new at some point does that mean they were useless because at the time they were not 100 years old or more? Thats not really an valid arguement.

Furthermore, it isn't the fault of the martial art itself that it has been bastartized by money grubbing, fat ass, western mindset induced douche bags looking to make money off of children and tweens. If muay thai was targeted towards kids and making money the same could be said about that. Unfortunately unless you have just have a good eye for what is a good school or not then it really is going to be luck of the draw if you find a good TKD school.

As for the rest, well, thats your quarrel with andy I guess.

[A_Wilhelm]

this thread is a perfect example why discussions about martial arts are useless and gay. (no offence to anyone, and the starting post wasn't even that bad, just a little one sided)

There are always two sides of people arguing against each other, one being the people who are all about the tradition and philosophy about martial arts and about how it is a way of self expression and so on.

The other being the people who are all about, no it's all about fighting and being able to beat up every random guy on the street and such things. (which opinion is generally based on a way too violent attitude)

maybe it's because I'm not a native english speaker, but the name martial arts sound incredible gay and stupid. I'd rather liked it being named something along the lines of combat sport, because that's what it is, a normal sport. And I really don't understand why some people always act like it was more or better than other sports. (almost as if they want to be special just because they're doing this kind of sport)

And discussing it in this manner is like a dancer or ice figure skater talking about the philosophy behind it, and how it is a way of self expression, an art form and what not.
Or a football player talking about how he can tackle every random guy on the street and break his neck if he talks shit. Which is both as laughable (but true of course, atleast for the person who feels this ways anyways) as this kind of discussions about MA. It's just a sport people, stop acting so gay.

again, no offence to anyone. But it's really just a sport. A better example of the above may would've been ice figure skating and ice hockey. They're just two different approaches to the same thing.

[Steve]

Well once you realize that Taekwondo is basically analogous to Boy Scouts in both form and function, ("patches" awarded to kids in a system about 50 years old), you realize that its tradition means fuck all because it's not tradition, it's just some dance that bespectacled South Korean men who are probably still alive made up.

But Taekwondo is beside the point, I suppose. Even if it were some style with hundreds of years of history, it is still not necessarily so that forms are the most important part of martial arts. No amount of "research" is going to uncover the supposed truth of a normative statement, as I said, which is what makes Andy's appeals to some kind of logic structure completely insane as he feebly attempts to backtrack over his statements and pretend that he didn't just get upset because someone disagreed with his arbitrary opinion.

[Neodine]

I practiced 4 years of Kwan Nyom Hapkido, it doesn't have any forms in it. =(

[Steve]

Well it can hardly be called a martial art at all then, can it!?

[Torre]

One could argue that forms were created because there was no other option to pass on and preserve the actual fighting techniques hundreds/thousands of years ago. Now you can just make some dvd-s with the techniques or upload vids to youtube.

And the old masters always changed their style to fit them, and used the best training tools they could find/afford at that time, if you look at okinawan karate or kung fu, those huge jugs used for finger strengthening are a good example of that. If we want to be really like those old masters, we should use all the best training tools at our disposal to improve. That's why I can't understand why some karate people I know refuse to do mitt training or bagwork because "it's not traditional". Becoming so set in a particular way is ridiculous.

And I still think forms are important, but VERY few people can use and interpret them in a way that's actually suitable for self defense or fighting (though I think I already said that in my previous post).

[Steve]

Forms are one aspect of certain styles that defines their identities

[TKD_Andy]

i've just had to PM badams or whatever his name is, i'm fed up of having to dissect his posts every time because they're just too incorrect to believe.

as for any research into the area, try:
- Living the Marital Way by Forrest E Morgan
- 75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique by Rick Clark
- Karate-Do Kyohan by Gichen Funakoshi
- The Art of Strategy by R.L Wing
- The Kyokushin Way by Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama.

these are just five of thousands of books that demonstrate the importance of forms within martial arts.

[Steve]

Actually pretty much everything Badams has said is more or less correct, Andy.

[TKD_Andy]

Actually pretty much everything Badams has said is more or less correct, Andy.

this highlights your lack of knowledge on the subject, steve.

[tsuchinoko]

Uh ya dont see UFC fighters using forms do ya? they'll make those old masters TapouT with a broken ankle, yea yea

[Steve]

this highlights your lack of knowledge on the subject, steve.

No, it highlights that you disagree with me because you're wrong and I'm right

[Steve]

Uh ya dont see UFC fighters using forms do ya? they'll make those old masters TapouT with a broken ankle, yea yea

BUT I WATCHED A VIDEO OF UFC WITH MY "MASTER" ONCE AND THEY USED LIKE 10 TECHNIQUES FROM TAEGUK SAM JANG AND KORYO HYUNG, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT TSUCHINOKO

[Skilzat85X]

You don't see UFC fighters using forms because forms have little to do with fighting really.

Just because it's 'martial arts' doesn't mean every single thing someone does has to be some sort of weaponized action, haha. "Oh look, that martial artist is doing pushups, is he preparing to crush an enemy under his manly chest?" It's part of the foundational style, whether or not it has crap to do with combat or not. I'm not saying it is or isn't the most important, but it's still important (or, necessary) regardless for 'traditional MA'.

[Torre]

LYOTO MACHIDA



This is only half serious, btw.

[tsuchinoko]

BUT I WATCHED A VIDEO OF UFC WITH MY "MASTER" ONCE AND THEY USED LIKE 10 TECHNIQUES FROM TAEGUK SAM JANG AND KORYO HYUNG, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT TSUCHINOKO

technique 1. face punch
technique 2. face punch
technique 3. face punch
technique 4. face punch
technique 5. face punch
technique 6. face punch
technique 7. face punch
technique 8. face punch
technique 9. face punch
technique 10. face punch

[Skippy]

"Forms are the most important thing, if you think something else is please state"
"Well actual.."
"WRONG"
"Huh? what I was going to say was.."
"OH GOD THIS MERELY SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE"
"Dude you didn't even le.."
"WRONG WRONG WRONG"

[Torre]

SKIPPY SMACKDOWN

[tsuchinoko]

"Forms are the most important thing, if you think something else is please state"
"Well actual.."
"WRONG"
"Huh? what I was going to say was.."
"OH GOD THIS MERELY SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE"
"Dude you didn't even le.."
"WRONG WRONG WRONG"

LOL so true skippy, so true

[TKD_Andy]

"Forms are the most important thing, if you think something else is please state"
"Well actual.."
"WRONG"
"Huh? what I was going to say was.."
"OH GOD THIS MERELY SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE"
"Dude you didn't even le.."
"WRONG WRONG WRONG"

haha i agree. However i'll put it another way:

*this is purely an example, not a fact*

"squats are the best way to improve your vertical jump, if you disagree please say why"
"no they're not, the best way is to crouch down low and then come back up"
"do some reading, and you'll see thats a squat"
"no, doing squats is stupid. I dont need to do research. You have do crouch down low and then come back up. Its even better if you have a weight on your shoulders"
"but that is a squat"
"no its not squats are stupid and dumb, the best way is to crouch down low with a weight on your shoulder and then come back up"
"do some research and you'll actually see that's exactly what i've said, you just cant see it for whatever reason"

this is how i view this thread, 99% of the posts that contradict my statement are actually supporting it, however the people who have posted them lack the background knowledge to see it.

Its like asking someone a question, then giving them the answer on a piece of paper thats folded up. They'd rather get out their phone and try and google it, or turn their TV's on and look at the news than actually look at the answer you've just given them because they dont understand it.

[David M.]

lol andy just made this thread because he wants to be hailed as knowledgeable.


really though from an outsiders view on martial arts (my view) martial arts doesn't mean shit lol. just a stepping stone (arguable) to tricking (what this forum is about).

[Papa Lazarou]

Perhaps he was encouraging disscussing the positives of forms training. Plus I believe he was wanting people who actually have done it consistently and have some basis for an actual arguement and not based on hearsay. Those who claim to have experience in it but did not really like it or give it a chance from the beginning don't count...when you start out doing something with anything less than 100% deisre to understand it then your not going to benefit from it very much if at all. It either all or nothing.
Indeed. In some ways, those people would actually be the worst judges. They've done it for years? Of course they'll say it's worthwhile.

You can use knowledge of other areas to judge the importance of forms, without having actually done forms practice yourself. What are they good for? Improving technique? Physical conditioning? Do they improve fighting ability? How? Are they just for historical preservation of the techniques?

What's a martial art? What is "important" to a martial art if we use that definition?

No one has made any arguments about anything specific. It's just "yah man, they're really important" or "yah man, they totally make you a better fighter", with no evidence, and no supporting arguments.

[TKD_Andy]

lol andy just made this thread because he wants to be hailed as knowledgeable.


*facepalm*

quite the opposite. I want to highlight the fact that I myself am just scraping the surface of the importance of forms within martial arts, and I firmly believe that there are (shamefully small) number of people who would benefit greatly from broadening their perspectives on the application and usefullness of forms as a whole.

this thread shows a blatant disregard for the seeking of knowledge, and woefully shows the true nature of what martial arts has become. I dont blame people for being indoctrinated into ignorance, however I do blame them for not wanting to change it, which they clearly dont want to do based on the indignities with which they react when they're told that they need to actually learn something to see that they're wrong. Unfortunately its the "la-la-la, i'm not listening" response.

You don't see UFC fighters using forms because forms have little to do with fighting really.

i completely agree with you (as a general statement).

However at no point in this thread have I said that forms will make you a leet fighter, its a view that people have tried to force upon me even though I dont believe it in the slightest. Saying that though, BJJ fighters do use moves and often short sequences that are taken straight from forms, just used on the ground instead of standing. This demonstrates my point very well; BJJ practitioners never learned forms, however they're hailed as the most successful MMA 'fighters' and they've started doing moves that are from traditional forms without any influence from those who do.

You could then therefore argue that effective fighting has everything to with forms, if utilized correctly.

[Torre]

Technically, kata means pre-arranged two person drills as well (refer to judo or japanese jujitsu), so basically whenever you practice prearranged situational drills, for example slipping a jab and countering, you are doing a form. This is just semantics, though.

[Papa Lazarou]

this thread shows a blatant disregard for the seeking of knowledge, and woefully shows the true nature of what martial arts has become.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Now, want to actually explain the benefit or importance of forms? Or what a martial art is?

[A_Wilhelm]

I like how people get into arguments about opinions as if they were facts. This applies to like 99% of all arguments and discussion (not speaking about TT but in general). It is like people wanted their opinions to be judged as better as the ones from someone else, when there isn't really a better or worse at all and definately no truth. It's just that different opinions apply better on certain circumstances.

This applies to nearly every subject. Let's take gravity. People in general have the opinion that gravity exist and hold it for a fact, when it's just a matter of circumstances. ok you may be right if you say "but here I stand, not flying away, what different proof do you need", but you're seeing it from a way too narrow point of view which leads you to believe that what you are thinking is a fact when it's just an opinion which is accidentally true under the circumstances you live in.

When e.g. under water or in different scenarios in planes etc you can easily say fuck you to gravity and are totally fine having a opinion that holds it for a fact that gravity doesn't exist. (although this would mean you're seeing it from an even more narrow point of view).

Then again another person lifes in space and has the opinion that gravity exist under the circumstance that you live on earth, which is the same as you thinking gravity can be abolished under water or in certain scenarios in planes etc. But for him under his cirsumstances which are living in space, your little earth can be neglected and he can easily say that gravity doesn't exist. Maybe he doesn't even know your unimportant little earth because it's way too small and unimportant.

But that certainly doesn't mean that his opinion is the truth, maybe, but just maybe it's a little nearer to the truth, but certanly not more.

You see, if things like the existance of gravity are just a matter of opinion, how does it come that every random dude holds everything that he thinks he knows, for the truth. How arrogant and stupid is that.

[TKD_Andy]

Now, want to actually explain the benefit or importance of forms? Or what a martial art is?

the first I can do. The second I can only give what I believe a martial art is.

I think I'm going to have to answer the first one in two parts though. The first part:

If I may, i'd like to re-word the question so it may engender a better answer. Instead of the importance of the forms themselves, I'll explain the benefit of practicing the forms. I'd change the question because forms themselves are not important (in terms of their names etc), the meaning behind them is purely (with regards ITF Taekwondo forms) propaganda tools to promote the knowledge of Korean history.

*if i make a reference to a 'hard' art, I mean a striking art like TKD. If i say a 'soft' art, i'm referring to aikido, tai-chi and the like*

Doing forms is the easiest way to build up the necessary speed, power and balance to execute striking techniques in any given hard art. In soft arts it helps to build up the co-ordination and balance that you need to blend the force of your own attacks with that of your attacker. Sure, you could get the same speed and power by spending hours in the gym doing various other exercises, but that wont actually make you better at the specific motions that will most benefit you in a combat situation, which forms would. If you want to get better at something, practice doing it, rather than anything else.

Also, if you've read any works on Buddhism or meditative states, you may have heard of "mushin" or "mind-no-mind". I'm not going to go into the why's of this, but it is one of the most coveted abilities of great marital artists, and is credited for their incredible reactions and ability to defeat opponents. If you haven't heard of this, im not going to bother explaining it, as thats a whole other story. However, the solemn practice of traditional forms is a perfect way of achieving mushin. Again, you can achieve mushin by doing other things, meditating etc, but why would you strive to achieve it only to then have to go back to basics when wanting to achieve it doing your chosen art? Therefore a goal of practicing forms is to achieve mushin whilst performing your techniques.

Forms are also an incredibly good way of increasing your CV health via interval training. What does this have to do with martial arts though I hear you say... everything! If you want to be a good martial artists, you should be able to continue a fight as long as it is necessary, and that can be a long time if you're facing a formidable opponent. Again, you could achieve this through doing other stuff (spring pieces, cycling, swimming etc) but why would you? You should utilize your time and practice forms so that you have good stamina whilst doing the moves that could save your life. After all, what good is it to be able to do 100m swim in a record-setting time when you tire out after throwing two punches. Achieving better CV via martial arts forms will give you a better chance of having the stamina to keep fighting when you need it. If you dont believe me on this, there is an excellent exert on this exact subject in 'Living the Martial Way' by Forrest E Morgan.

Forms are also the only time in practicing your chosen MA that you can (and should) put 100% effort into every technique you do. Every block should be executed as if you're snapping someones bones, every punch executed as if its obliterating someones skull (of course with due care and attention to your own joint health, e.g: hyperextension). Whilst it may be claimed that you can do all of this whilst free sparring, in that environment you are involved in a glorified game of tag; you're not out to harm your opponent. This is a fact that people overlook greatly. Sparring is not fighting. If sparring was fighting, you'd only ever do it once at your class and you'd only have half the class left the following week. Similarly, forms are not fighting, however the application of the moves within forms are far, far more effective than that great dummy round kick to backfist you've seen on "greatest TKD Spars" on youtube.

part two of the 1st answer:

Forms are important to practice in themselves for the reason I initially stated in the thread; they're the only remaining link to the original teachings of the art. Like anything that has been passed down over hundreds of generations, the original meaning has been pretty much lost. It is therefore our duty to find out these meanings and utilize them as effectively as the original practicioners did. The moves that you classically understand as "chamber positions" and "blocks" are not in fact what they are. This is a fact that should be understood by everyone who does martial arts. The naivity is a necessary constraint placed on the original instructors as when teaching en masse, its just easier to say that one is a chamber and the other is a block. As time passed, these pseudo-meanings became the "actual" meanings, and unfortunately now people are ridiculed because they (correctly) believe that there are more to forms than meets the eye. Whereas infact, you're pretty stupid if you dont question them!


Or what a martial art is?

simply put, a martial art is a system of defending yourself, and neutralising attackers by various means to preserve your own safety.

[tsuchinoko]

Martial arts' ultimate purpose is to fight. So the best way to learn this is actually fighting, or simulating it. It's an all in 1 package right there.

Forms are important too, for helping to develop speed and perfect the movements, however they are certainly not the most important part of martial arts! Learning to apply the techniques in a realistic situation is the most important part, coz that's why martial arts were developed in the first place.

Yeeeaahhh booiiiii

[Steve]

technique 1. face punch
technique 2. face punch
technique 3. face punch
technique 4. face punch
technique 5. face punch
technique 6. face punch
technique 7. face punch
technique 8. face punch
technique 9. face punch
technique 10. face punch

you forgot the kihap

[Badams]

lol Andy's PM

dude, stop posting in the thread I made.

every single statement you've made is incorrect due to your complete lack of knowledge on the subject, and if you cared to research the topic you'd see how wrong you are and it'd save me time as I wouldnt have to individually respond to each ill-thought sentence.

my complete lack of knowledge of the subject? I've had around 8-9 years of TKD experience(and no not in elementary school at some mcdojo). So I know a bit about forms. I've also had muay thai and some boxing training plus a little bit of MMA.

I've read that Living the Martial Way Book. I regret buying it.

Yes, forms are important and nice,great and whatever. But they are not a very effective way to learn to fight.

thats all i was saying. YOU fucking asked us what we thought was the most important part of martial arts was and then you got offended when we told you. wtf.

I followed your criteria(What you think is most important. Why?If you don't think forms are important dont contribute:I never said forms were useless) lol. I said Sparring was important because it simulated a combat situation(better than forms at least).

im not sure why you felt the need to PM me of all the people in this thread.I was behaving fairly respectfully( up until a point).

I think I have a crush on TKDAndy:bandit:(but only because he sent me a PM. cuz I think that means he likes me)

[tsuchinoko]

lololol TKD andy always sounds like he's got a cactus up his ass

everyone seems to lack this magical 'knowledge' andy keeps talking about too apparently

[Steve]

When will everyone realize that Taekwon Dandy is an anthropomorphic banana with equally absurd and hallucinogenic views on everything from logic to martial arts to people's perceptions of his asinine behavior?

[Papa Lazarou]

Thanks for your last reply, Andy. A productive post for the thread, yay!

I might make another reply later if I think it'll be worthwhile.

[Steve]

I already made several productive posts and no one thanked me for it, Papa.

[Papa Lazarou]

They weren't productive haha. Accurate maybe, probably not productive.

[Steve]

My very first post was exactly that the thread asked for, and it was productive since it was completely true and couldn't possibly be argued against. If everyone had just paid attention then it would have been so productive that right now everyone would know the truth, ha ha.

[Papa Lazarou]

If everyone had just paid attention

There we go.

But yes, you can have a thank you for your efforts anyway, Steve.

[jtam0927]

A shopping cart (also called trolley, carriage, shopping carriage, buggy, bascart, & basket) is a cart supplied by a shop, especially a supermarket, for use by customers inside the shop for transport of merchandise to the check-out counter during shopping, and often to the customer's car after paying as well. Often, customers are allowed to leave the carts in the parking lot, and store personnel, referred to as cart attendants, return the carts to the shop.


Almost all shopping carts are made of metal or plastic and designed to nest within each other in a line to facilitate moving many at one time, and to save on storage space. The carts can come in many sizes, with larger ones able to carry a child. There are also specialized carts designed for two children, and electric mobility scooters with baskets designed for disabled customers. 24,000 children are injured each year in shopping carts.[1] Some stores have child carts that look like a car or van with a seat where a child can sit. Such "Car-Carts" or "Beans", as some call them in the cart business, may offer protection and convenience by keeping the child restrained, lower to the ground, protected from falling items, and amused.

Shopping carts are usually fitted with four caster wheels which can point in any direction to allow maneuvering. However, when any one wheel jams, the cart can become difficult to handle. Many carts only have swivel caster wheels on the front, while the rear ones are on a fixed axle.

An alternative to the shopping cart is a small handheld shopping basket. A customer may prefer a basket for a small amount of merchandise. Small shops, where carts would be impractical, often supply only baskets. A collapsible utility cart has a basket pivotally mounted to a forward facing, C-shaped cart frame. As the lower portion of the C-shaped cart frame is moved under a flat bed (station wagon, etc), the upper part containing the basket slides onto the truck bed. The frame is then pivoted upward around the truck bumper and about the basket and conveniently stored around the basket. U.S. Patent 5,503,424 details this invention, which is marketed as Autocarts.

Often there is the problem of theft of shopping carts by pedestrian customers who use them to carry items home; see Theft prevention below.

[edit] History

Although recent historical investigations have provided evidence of multiple innovations and controversies between early contributors to the invention of the shopping cart,[2] it is usually considered that the "first" shopping cart was introduced on June 4, 1937, the invention of Sylvan Goldman, owner of the Humpty Dumpty supermarket chain in Oklahoma City. With the assistance of Fred Young, a mechanic, Goldman constructed the first shopping cart, basing his design on that of a wooden folding chair. They built it with a metal frame and added wheels and wire baskets. Another mechanic, Arthur Kosted, developed a method to mass produce the carts by inventing an assembly line capable of forming and welding the wire. The cart was awarded patent number 2,196,914 on April 9, 1940 (Filing date: March 14, 1938), titled, "Folding Basket Carriage for Self-Service Stores". They advertised the invention as part of a new “No Basket Carrying Plan.”

The invention did not catch on immediately. Men found them effeminate; women found them suggestive of a baby carriage. "I've pushed my last baby buggy," an offended woman informed him. After hiring several male and female models to push his new invention around his store and demonstrate their utility, as well as greeters to explain their use, shopping carts became extremely popular and Goldman became a multimillionaire. Goldman continued to make modifications to his original design, and the basket size of the shopping cart increased as stores realized that their customers purchased more as its size increased. Today, most big-box stores and supermarkets have shopping carts for the convenience of the shoppers.

[edit] Rental
Shopping trolleys locked with a chain

In many countries, the customer has to pay a small deposit by inserting a coin, which is returned if and when the customer returns the cart to a designated cart parking point. The motivation behind the deposit systems is not theft deterrent since the trolley is worth significantly more than the deposit, however through this fee the retailer seeks to reduce the expense of their employees having to gather the carts that were not returned, and to avoid damages by runaway trolleys.

Although common in Europe, the deposit system has not been widely adopted in the United States, with the exception of some chains like Aldi, who require a $0.25 deposit. Other stores such as Costco and ShopRite also use the coin deposit system, but it is not used at all of their locations.

In Australia, deposit systems are common in some local government areas as they have been made compulsory by local law. Usually, all ALDI stores, and most Coles and Safeway stores will have a lock mechanism on their trolley which requires a $1 or $2 coin to unlock. $2 coin devices are now becoming more common however.

The deposit varies, but usually coins of higher value, such as €1 or £1 are used. While the deposit systems usually are designed to accommodate a certain size of domestic coin, foreign coins, former currencies (like DM coins) or even appropriately folded pieces of cardboard can be used to unlock the trolleys as well. Trolley collectors are also usually provided with a special key which they can use to unlock the trolleys from the trolley bay and get the key back.

Some retailers sell "trolley tokens" as an alternative to coins, often for charity.

A system similar to the shopping trolley deposit is also used for profit with luggage carts at many airports, where companies like Smarte Carte charge two or more dollars (U.S.) (or equivalent) for rental, and return a small token reward of a quarter (25 ¢) for returning carts to the other end of any dispenser machine.

[edit] Theft prevention

[edit] Electronic

Theft deterrent systems are becoming popular in many shopping centers.[citation needed] An electronic system works by locking one of the wheels, usually one on the front, when the cart is rolled out of a designated area. Each shopping cart is fitted with an electronic locking wheel, or 'boot'. A transmitter with a thin wire is placed around the perimeter of the parking lot. The boot locks when the cart leaves the designated area. Often a line is painted in front of the broadcast range to warn customers that their cart will stop when rolled past the line. The locked wheel is usually unlocked with a portable electronic device carried by store staff called a "CartKey" that sends a signal to the boot, unlocking the wheel.[citation needed]

[edit] Physical

Another less high-tech form of theft prevention is with the use of a physical impediment. One method popular in smaller stores is to use a vertical pole attached to the cart which is of a height greater than the store's doors will allow past.[citation needed]

[edit] Name

The names of a shopping cart vary by region. The following names are regional-specific names for shopping carts:

* trolley - British, Australian English, and New Zealand English
* carriage/shopping carriage - New England region of the U.S.
* buggy - Southern U.S., Western Canada, and Pittsburgh; the latter case often being considered a word related to Pittsburghese
* bascart/basket - various regions

[DarkXacreD]

Andy, I feel that I typed a huge post about 10 pages back for nothing. Did you even read it?



However at no point in this thread have I said that forms will make you a leet fighter, its a view that people have tried to force upon me even though I dont believe it in the slightest. Saying that though, BJJ fighters do use moves and often short sequences that are taken straight from forms, just used on the ground instead of standing. This demonstrates my point very well; BJJ practitioners never learned forms, however they're hailed as the most successful MMA 'fighters' and they've started doing moves that are from traditional forms without any influence from those who do.

You could then therefore argue that effective fighting has everything to with forms, if utilized correctly.

Or have they just been doing moves that already existed, but were organized into forms, like transcribing knowledge onto a text?

The main problem I have with your argument here is that you seem convinced that the techniques of martial arts come directly from their forms. If you think about how these forms were conceived in the first place, you'd see that you've reversed the process of creating a form:

In order to create a form, you must first create techniques.
Right?
But you seem to be saying that techniques are derived solely from forms.

It can be logically deducted that forms began simply as a list of each technique developed by the founder of a martial art, and then eventually became more and more layered, and abstract; with one movement representing many different techniques.

Some martial arts (a large number of combat sports) found no need for forms, because they rely mostly on their fundamental techniques (boxing), OR they just used a list and didn't bother reorganizing techniques in order of anything other than difficulty or alphabetical order (wrestling, BJJ).

So like I said in my previous post, forms are basically lists, or manuscripts of techniques, organized in an aesthetically pleasing, flowing, easy to remember, etc. manner. While they may make it easier to remember a series of techniques or combinations, you still need to drill, spar, record yourself on video, etc.

If I posted again after this I'd probably be repeating myself. And the thread has kinda been hijacked anyway, so...damnit Andy just calm the fuck down. XD

[TKD_Andy]

. I'm glad it took 12 pages to reach this conclusion haha

and it'll probably take another 12 for people to realise that I've said nothing along those lines at all.

[shengoikee]

andy i find this hilarious

that's all i have to say really haha

[Frederik]

My opinion about forms in martial arts.
If you want to learn how to become a great and versatile fighter and not practise for 10 years then you shouldnt pick a martial arts style that emphasize forms in it haha. You don't fight in certain patterns and because of that its basically useless, if you dont have a bunch of fighting experience already.
I once saw a TKD fighter against a pro muay thai fighter from bangkok when I was younger and that was just hilarious. Muay thai, Boxing, BJJ, MMA is just a whole nother dimension fighting-wise hahaha.
And I agree with Badams!:good:

[Papa Lazarou]

It depends on your goals.

[Steve]

and it'll probably take another 12 for people to realise that I've said nothing along those lines at all.

He didn't say you did, because we all already know you've just cried for the entire duration of this thread at invisible straw men and not actually said anything that resembled good sense

[DarkXacreD]

lol DarkXAcreD i recognize that building in your avatar, i forget, was it in wonderland or ontario place?

It was at Wonderland, haha :good:

Have we met? Do you train at Birchmount or anywhere downtown-ish?

----------------------------

And I love how TKD_Andy still hasn't acknowledged my posts at all. I guess I'm one of the guys who have "a blatant disregard for the seeking of knowledge."

[TKD_Andy]

And I love how TKD_Andy still hasn't acknowledged my posts at all. I guess I'm one of the guys who have "a blatant disregard for the seeking of knowledge."

i've read all of your posts, i havent acknowledged them because they dont really have anything to do with what im talking about.

i've basically said that forms are the most important thing in MA. I didnt say why for over 10 pages, and nobody asked because they were too busy trying to assimilate various (and incorrect) reasons why forms are stupid etc (which has nothing to do with my point), tried to instigate arguments on different topics and try and pin points of view on me which I do not believe.

basically, nobody has actually addressed the points i've made, theyve tried to argue tangent points that I couldnt care less about, nor believe myself. (e.g doing forms make you an awesome MMA fighter. I dont believe that for a second).

Also, nobody has actually presented an argument that shows that the points I have raised that promote the importance of forms are incorrect. If that had been done, the thread would have been alot more constructive. However the hapless sociopaths like steve have derailed the thread for their own means. (as usual).

There has been as massive amount of (incorrect) assumption by the people that have tried to instigate arguments on other issues in the thread that for whatever reason I possess some mystical knowledge (or claim to) about forms, however i've never given any grounds for that in the slightest, nor do I believe that there is anything secret about forms, its all very simple and straightforward stuff, yet the majority of people have failed to follow it miserably :eh:

and for those who agree with badams, he's actually been posting reasons why forms are good, he just for some reason believes that doing everything you do in forms, just not doing forms, is good. Which is really stupid.

I've clearly stated why I believe forms are so important, so if anyone cares to disagree with them, then they can argue on those terms, rather than trying to argue something that has nothing to do with the thread.

[TKD_Andy]

My opinion about forms in martial arts.
If you want to learn how to become a great and versatile fighter and not practise for 10 years then you shouldnt pick a martial arts style that emphasize forms in it haha.

and why is this....?

You don't fight in certain patterns and because of that its basically useless,

so you dont block an attack then counter-attack? Thats a pattern.

Thats all forms are, a series of blocks and counter attacks. I dont understand why people are having such a hard time grasping what forms actually are.

I once saw a TKD fighter against a pro muay thai fighter from bangkok when I was younger and that was just hilarious. Muay thai, Boxing, BJJ, MMA is just a whole nother dimension fighting-wise hahaha.


this is the absolute worst measure of any martial art at any time. I guarantee that you could find a cross-style fight that proved the complete opposite. Just youtube it.

And the fighting sports that you mentioned (MT, boxing etc) focus purely on SPORTS FIGHTS, not real fights. Its a completely different sphere of operation. You're trying to compare something that was designed to kill and maim people to a sport thats primarily concerned with winning trophies.

[tsuchinoko]

Well Dandy, to answer your first question:

It would be ridiculous to say forms are the most important part of martial arts. Being able to use techniques in a combat situation is the most important part.

Forms can be beneficial, no doubt, in getting those fast snappy blocks and strikes, but when it comes down to it, being able to perform a flawless form is a lot different to an opponent actually there in front of you trying to grab you and hurt/kill you.

As far as history goes it could be argued that ancient martial arts still survive today because of forms written down on ancient texts buried in rural china...

[TKD_Andy]

Being able to use techniques in a combat situation is the most important part.

and whats the best way to drill the techniques you use in combat situations until you dont have to think about them to execute them correctly? Forms.


but when it comes down to it, being able to perform a flawless form is a lot different to an opponent actually there in front of you trying to grab you and hurt/kill you.

why? The only difference between executing a move in a form to the fresh air and using a "block" to break someones arm at the elbow in a combat situation is purely in your head. If you drill a form enough, you will be easily able to use the appropriate move(s) from the form to full effect. The only differences are the ones you make up yourself.

You could argue that things can go wrong, and you might not be able to execute the moves exactly as in the pattern if you do something wrong, but the forms do actually compensate for that. If you study them correctly, they will give you all the answers you need.

As far as history goes it could be argued that ancient martial arts still survive today because of forms written down on ancient texts buried in rural china...

I disagree. If forms were not part of martial arts, martial arts would still survive, we'd just be learning something completely different (probably how to use tazers etc). The evolution would just be different.

[tsuchinoko]

Matter of opinion. Forms are in fact, very good at learning martial arts techniques.
To say they're the most important part is arguable.

Andy, I don't know how many fights you've had, or haven't had, but I do know that when it's a real combat situation and you're fearing for your life, all those years of karate practice, making those forms flawless just don't come into mind.

The techniques you have learnt (from doing forms) will be of help in that, but ultimately it depends on yourself as a fighter.

Like I've said before, the best way to get good at fighting (martial arts) is to actually fight, whether it's full contact sparring or the real deal.

[Steve]

Ki exists guys, I read it in a book. If you disagree then you obviously aren't researching enough.

[TKD_Andy]

Mall those years of karate practice, making those forms flawless just don't come into mind.

thats the practicioner, not what they practice. This is a very important distinction im sure you'll agree with me on.

The techniques you have learnt (from doing forms) will be of help in that, but ultimately it depends on yourself as a fighter.

oh absolutely man :good:

However that can be said of doing any training. If you practice sparring with partners for years that doesn't mean you're gonna be the same when you're in a real life situation.

Like I've said before, the best way to get good at fighting (martial arts) is to actually fight

again, this is incredibly impractical. You'd be locked up every time you practiced!

*edit*

having steve on my ignore list is brilliant haha.

[Steve]

having steve on my ignore list is brilliant haha.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

[Steve]

I guess since you've blocked me you won't see me say that I reported your thread for trolling

[TKD_Andy]

:eh: what?

I havent deleted any of my posts

[David M.]

do you think you're cool tkd mandy?

[TKD_Andy]

again, getting off topic because people cant produce coherent counterarguments to my own.

to be honest, trying to educate you people is a waste of time. I'm quite happy for you to wallow in your own ignorance, as it is truly your loss.

[jtam0927]

It was at Wonderland, haha :good:

Have we met? Do you train at Birchmount or anywhere downtown-ish?

----------------------------

And I love how TKD_Andy still hasn't acknowledged my posts at all. I guess I'm one of the guys who have "a blatant disregard for the seeking of knowledge."

i live at the end of kennedy road, near the birchmount high school

[TKD_Andy]

well expect the last few off-topic posts from both you and myself to be deleted then hopefully so this can stay on-topic.

[David M.]

to be honest, trying to educate you people is a waste of time. I'm quite happy for you to wallow in your own ignorance, as it is truly your loss.

lol why do you care so much about us? i just get the vibe that you made this thread because you want to seem knowledgeable and you want people to give you the respect you think you deserve.

this is still a tricks forum haha.

[TKD_Andy]

lol why do you care so much about us?

because I revel in the excitement of learning something new. After all, thats why alot of people trick. The practising of forms is incredibly dull for people who dont know why they're doing it, or know the benefits of doing it. By helping explain it to them, I hope to inspire people to actually practice them with conviction and appreciate how important they are.

i just get the vibe that you made this thread because you want to seem knowledgeable and you want people to give you the respect you think you deserve.

if I was the one that came up with the forms, or had discovered something significant about it then yes i'd be asking for respect, but its the forms themselves and the lineage of martial arts that people should respect :good:

I'm not egotistical about this; I freely admit there is much about martial arts that I do not know, and I dont pertain to know everything. However I am broadening my perspective and learning new things about them and the more I learn, the more there is to be learned and appreciated in turn.

The person who presents an ill-educated opinion and does not wish to learn almost deserves to be mocked, yet the people mocking should be apprehensive about the person who is learning rapidly about the subject, as they will find themselves being the ones mocked for their lack of knowledge. This is true of any educational situation.

this is still a tricks forum haha.

of course it is! I dont know if you were around when there was the MA forum. Due to people like Steve and Andyleterrible it got spammed to shit and was too hard to moderate, and was never really used to its full potential.

[Hez]

I think Swartz was the main downfall of the MA forum hahaha

[David M.]

of course it is! I dont know if you were around when there was the MA forum. Due to people like Steve and Andyleterrible it got spammed to shit and was too hard to moderate, and was never really used to its full potential.

fair enough but it seems like it was taken down for a reason.

[Steve]

again, getting off topic because people cant produce coherent counterarguments to my own.

to be honest, trying to educate you people is a waste of time. I'm quite happy for you to wallow in your own ignorance, as it is truly your loss.

Oh no, we'll never understand how choreographed shadow boxing will be crucial to martial arts now, even though my very first post (which you most likely ironically ignored) described exactly why forms don't matter. God, how will we ever be as incisive and insightful as you, TKD_Andy?

[Steve]

Would you care to tell us how it is a loss at all for us if we don't agree with your cliched and stereotypical view on martial arts, Andy?

The person who presents an ill-educated opinion and does not wish to learn almost deserves to be mocked

haha

of course it is! I dont know if you were around when there was the MA forum. Due to people like Steve and Andyleterrible it got spammed to shit and was too hard to moderate, and was never really used to its full potential.

Do you even know who either of us are, ha ha?

[DarkXacreD]

i live at the end of kennedy road, near the birchmount high school

So....do you train at birchmount gymnastics??

[Papa Lazarou]

Why not just practice the technique on a partner to learn it, then build power on a bag or something...

Supplement that with free-practice (with decent rules) and you're laughing.


Also, Andy, don't you think you should change your tactics if the majority of responses displease you? There's only so much good to be done by blaming the masses. It's not like they're going to listen haha.

[TKD_Andy]

Why not just practice the technique on a partner to learn it, then build power on a bag or something...

because if you were to practice correctly on a partner, you wouldnt get any volunteers after the first time. And practicing punches on bag will only mean that you're good at doing punches on a bag, not being able to block effectively without thinking and utilize strikes. Not to mention that there are much more effective ways to disable opponents that are taught in forms other than punching.

plus, teaching it with a partner also encourages compliance, which is a danger many people in the soft arts should be aware of. Its all too-easy to get into the habit of making it work every time because your partner knows whats coming. When people dont know whats coming its a whole other story, and if you can execute two techniques quickly utilizing your body weight and positioning then it doesnt really matter if they resist or not.

I had this in my 2nd dan grading, the guy I was working with didn't have a clue what he was doing when it came to self defense. I dont really care about non-compliance, as at that level if he doesn't know how to protect himself from injury then its his own fault. On one particular move i almost popped his shoulder out because he didnt realise what I was doing (even though I all I did was step forwards and execute a "low block" with one of the more useful applications)

[Jingy]

Why single out one element?

If we are going to be silly then "the most important thing" is experience and time spent drilling whatever the methods.

To be a good martial artist you must practise all elements of the art. I have lived with many world champions in sanda/san shou that do not do any forms but I would say that there technique was considerably effective. They still practise the old techniques, just not in a form.

I have also come across many martial artists that are awesome at forms, but clam up when it comes to facing an opponent and forget everything .. why? No experience .. no amount of form drilling will fully prepare you for the speed and the adrenaline associated with combat.

The arguments are not that strong. Hitting a bag does not teach you how to block effectively? How does hitting air work out for you? Surely there needs to be a balance? I do not think it is necassary to demolish someone in order to know your technique works - if that is the case I would question the quality and usefulness of the technique.

I am not disagreeing with you. Forms are incredibly important for creating memory and defining your technique. However, I think it is a bit silly to single out one element and say this is the most important; only when it all coems together does it really work as it should.

[Papa Lazarou]

And practicing punches on bag will only mean that you're good at doing punches on a bag, not being able to block effectively without thinking and utilize strikes.
Well surely that's even truer of practising on the air. You can do lots of things with a bag, not just punches.

I mean, there's basically striking and grappling. You can build power in striking by using a bag, accuracy and timing by using a partner.

For grappling, you can basically go all out as if it were the real thing - so you have the full range of practice for those techniques as well. Learn and perfect your technique on a partner, test and strengthen it in free practice.

plus, teaching it with a partner also encourages compliance, which is a danger many people in the soft arts should be aware of.
Definitely. This is why you should supplement with free practice, and put things in place to manage compliance in partner work.


I'd say the main advantage of forms is that they can be taught to large groups simultaneously. And I suppose they also help for historical purposes.

Quite possibly they also have unique benefits that you can't get through other sorts of practice, but I don't think they're particularly special among training methods (if your goal is to be effective in a physical conflict).

[Steve]

Haha just imagine someone doing "forms" to practice grappling

*rolls around on the ground* oof!

[Dave C]

I hate you Andy

I only read four posts but I'm pretty sure this whole thread is nothing more than a trashy excuse for your to preach about how your perceptions of martial arts are the only right ones while trying to shoot down opposing viewpoints, regardless of their validity.


By the way, forms are fucking garbage.

[Torre]

When I saw that the last post was yours, Dave, I was expecting the thread to be locked haha.

[David M.]

andy im pretty sure you're so keen on learning to defend yourself because you probably got your ass kicked over and over during high school for being the twat you are lol.

[Dave C]

When I saw that the last post was yours, Dave, I was expecting the thread to be locked haha.

Might as well be

andy im pretty sure you're so keen on learning to defend yourself because you probably got your ass kicked over and over during high school for being the twat you are lol.

ROFL good form comrade

[frankinstine]

Might as well be



ROFL good form comrade

LAWL!!

[Skilzat85X]

Tsk tsk Daves.

[Steve]

Actually, I would assume that Andy has never been in a physical altercation in his life before assuming he was bullied.

[Dave C]

Sorry Skilz :worry:

Haha anyone who takes Martial Arts this seriously as defense in the 21st Century should probably either cope with the dangers of the world or buy a gun.

Imagine if I made this thread, but instead of Martial Arts I chose another archaic combat form.

ATT: People who Participate in Archery

What's more important in archery than target shooting? Nothing I say!

ATT: People who Practice Fencing

Is there anything more important than keeping your feet in a straight line and wearing a funny mask? FUCKING NO.

Sorry I'll stop

See you guys later :dead:

[Skilzat85X]

Yea that's why forms aren't really meant to be for combat as much as their an artistic expression native to whatever respective martial art (I think I said this earlier).

Seriously saying "forms can't be used in a fight" (as has been said 1000x since the start of the thread) is the equivalent of saying "tricks can't be used in a fight", haha.

[Skilzat85X]

So I suppose I've been trying to get at is:

NO FRIGGIN DUH

[jtam0927]

So....do you train at birchmount gymnastics??

nope, im actually pretty shit at tricking haha, i just train in my backyard. wanna help me get better? lol, ill probably train outside of my backyard if i have someone who can actually trick next to me so i dont look like im retarded and have down syndrome when i bail.

[ninjitsian]

Removes the whole process of legs, not cool.

I find giving a nice side kick to the knee cap *extremely* effective when they're busy trying to hit me up top. Works everytime against my boxing obsessed friend.

GOD MOTHERS KICK FTW

Removes the whole process of legs, not cool.

I find giving a nice side kick to the knee cap *extremely* effective when they're busy trying to hit me up top. Works everytime against my boxing obsessed friend.

GOD MOTHERS KICK FTW

another note, people are only looking at the fighting side of martial arts. they get the martial part, but seem to leave out the "art"

thats why in my point of view i believe that forms are pretty much the most important part. they cover everything. applicable in a fight? who's to say, especially if no one knows what type of movements the form includes.
]
as far as the air and punching bag controversy, shit, use a wooden dummy. thats why i love wing chun when it comes to this. they have forms on the dummy that are used as simulation. sure the dummy's limbs may not be coming at you with full force, but they are a lot harder and stronger than a human arm. and if youre the agressor, then they would have to react to you.

i saw on a earlier post about how practicing a movement over and over wouldnt work in a real fight because of the fear/ adrenaline and what not. if that were the case then i dont think that ufc fighters would be using any techniques at all. they would just flail their arms around and what not.


as far as my understanding- forms, are not everything when it comes to fighting. there is no everything when it comes to fighting.

however as a general outview of MARTIAL ARTS, some styles are designed around forms. therefore i think it depends on what style of martial arts you are taking.

hung gar- sep tao hung/ golden fist
wingchun(chinese boxing)- si lium tao.

now the other side to that, is rather saying that in order to be successful in your art, you must harness the its key attributes.

this is also why ive come to believe that many people think that ninjutsu is shit.

my understanding of the truth is that they are correct in a sense.
the reason why is because the "ninjutsu" [you were right torre] taught these days is either taught by people who dont teach anyone anything or by people who run mcdojos. however i believe that if one were to train under hatsumi or someone else respectable, and discovered the arts true aspects, no matter what the art is, they would be successful. (run-on sent.)

hence tricking. if one doesnt understand center of gravity and utilize it, they probably fucking suck :)

how i have concluded to all this is pretty much from personal experience along with agreeing from pars of a few others. having taken all of these, i think my argument is a safe and flexible one.

i also think that most of the arguments presented on here are rather pointless.

1. people dont care what you say
2. this topic is too ganeral and has to many variables(if ands or buts)
3. people will die until they admit they are wrong
4. people are constantly questioning one's credibilty and"trolling"


hope no one got offended, but thats my viewpoint.

[Badams]

I find giving a nice side kick to the knee cap *extremely* effective when they're busy trying to hit me up top. Works everytime against my boxing obsessed friend.

Why would you kick your friend in the knee you sicko!?

[Steve]

Because he's too foolish to understand the importance of forms

[glide2]

Similarly, forms are not fighting, however the application of themoves within forms are far, far more effective than that great dummy round kick to backfist you've seen on "greatest TKD Spars" on youtube.

What you're basically saying is that punching the air is more effective than actually knocking out an opponent. Are you fucking retarded? Of course sparring is fighting you stupid cuntface, since you actually hit a fucking opponent while forms are nothing more than fancy faggoty dancing. You might as well do fucking ballet you FAGGIT

[Papa Lazarou]

Oh dear.

[EmpRitz]

The most important part of martial arts is mind set. Having the determination to seek constant and never ending improvement in every aspect of their our life.

[frankinstine]

Oh ladies, can't we all be civilized?

[frankinstine]

If not, please continue your exploration of the many ways to spell faget.

[glide2]

FAGGUT

[frankinstine]

Not by itself you moran.

[glide2]

STFU you idiat

[Steve]

The most important part of martial arts is your 40 kg turtle shell

[Dave C]

Lazy Shell

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thumb/e/e2/SMRPG_TroopaShell.png/120px-SMRPG_TroopaShell.png

[dpitlock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

[DarkXacreD]

nope, im actually pretty shit at tricking haha, i just train in my backyard. wanna help me get better? lol, ill probably train outside of my backyard if i have someone who can actually trick next to me so i dont look like im retarded and have down syndrome when i bail.

Maybe I'm too lazy to tell you what to do, but I'm gonna say: choose your own path.

If you feel comfortable enough to spend money on developing your tricks in a controlled (and slightly enhanced cuz of sprung floor) environment, go ahead and go to a gym. There are plenty of people that start going to open gym sessions without the slightest idea what they're doing or what they're getting themselves into, and then turn out fine.

It's like trying to get in shape before going to a martial arts class; just go to the class, and you'll get in shape!

Alternatively, if you know what you're doing, go ahead and keep tricking on grass (though it's still slightly too cold for that right now...it looks like it's gonna warm up, but there will probably be a blizzard in April).

[Steve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

[Badams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

lol.

[Swartz]

Hey what happened to my post about how Andy is using this thread as a mini "Martial Arts subforum" that he was so butthurt over losing?

[Swartz]

Well Andy is no mod so what mod is kissing his ass? This is bewildering haha.

[jtam0927]

wtf happened to all the beutiful shopping carts?

i say we all flood this thread with shopping carts again

[jtam0927]

http://clutterfree.biz/images/page_images/shopping-cart.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Colourful_shopping_carts.jpg
http://www.zampinc.com/images/cart_dimensions.jpg

[HaoTwo]

Why would you kick your friend in the knee you sicko!?

DON'T WORRY GUYS I ONLY HIT HIM JUST SLIGHTLY. Enough to stop him in his tracks anyway.

lol @ Lazy Shell. Mario RPG, yes please.

[Jingy]

...

You guys are just too cool..

A facepalm for pretty much all of you since I last posted ..

[AndyLeTerrible]

Well Andy is no mod so what mod is kissing his ass? This is bewildering haha.
haha

[poboom]

This is one of the best threads in T/T history!

[CodyLee1337]

Sadly I read the first post and nothing else. Now I contribute poorly.

To discriminate and say any one part of martial arts is the most important part is to be closed minded. Martial arts is what it is because of everything with in itself. Not merely a form, a kick or a block but also discipline, confidence, and spirituality neatly packaged into a way of life. (Disclaimer: My grammar and spelling probably sucks horribly and this is just a small quick simple response to the first question posed in the thread not in depth whatsoever but I think you would agree with me TKD_Andy)

[remthetreme]

obviously

[CodyLee1337]

WHY DO YOU POINT OUT MY OBVIOUS FAILURES SO !?