The advice in this forum is SHIT.

[Zeff]

1. Stop neglecting your arms, or upper body in general. Just because legs are "HARDCORE" and squats apparently stimulate the most growth, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be bench pressing big numbers, or doing bicep curls. It's as if you guys think you're so superior by doing legs 3/4 days, and neglecting everything else. Wake the fuck up and realize that that will get you fucking no where. The arms play a critical role in several leg dominant exercises. Neglecting them will simply hold you back. Balance is key.

2. "Strength training is the end all, fuck hypertrophy training" - average goon. Well guess what, you're wrong asshole. 5x5 is overrated. Strength training does not always = low reps. Both hypertrophy and strength based routines benefit each other.

3. Squats and milk -- shut the fuck up you faggots. Drinking whole milk is the dumbest fucking shit I've heard, especially the massive quantities you guys are drinking. Squats and milk is a relic from a time when men didn't have access to whey, or as many cheap protein alternatives. It's not the fucking 1940's. In today's day and age of mass production, the fat vs protein ratio of whole milk is garbage. You're all under the impression that you're making awesome gains, when you're really just adding several pounds of fat for no good fucking reason.

4. Scale weight doesn't mean shit. Worry about the weight on the bar, the weight on your belt, the weight you're pulling, rowing, and pressing. If you're eating over maintenance, progressively overloading, and using a good routine with adaptations when necessary, the weight will come. If you try and move the scale x amount every week, you'll gain more fat than necessary.

5. Giving shitty advice. If you don't know what you're talking about, just shut the fuck up. Learn from those who have had success.

[Karlnold]

Yes, Zeff.

[Crazy Max]

Sticky please.

[Scott]

THANK YOU FOR BEING ONE OF THE FEW INTELLIGENT PEOPLE HERE. You are awarded a sticky!

[Ewasiuk]

BUT BUT I THOUGHT DOING 100 PUSHUPS WOULD MAKE YOU STRONGER :agony:

[Caveman]

This makes me slightly happier about this place.

[Crazy Max]

You got a sticky :good:. Now just give me my ghost writing royalties son.

[compleks]

The advice here is generally pretty good. Although I don't read nearly as many threads as I used to.

[Lees Dragon]

A sticky?!
What an accomplishment!! :smile:

[brandonn]

5. Giving shitty advice. If you don't know what you're talking about, just shut the fuck up. Learn from those who have had success.


thank you zeff
theres no worse thing than someone "pretending" to know what they're talking about....this makes other people into idiots giving other new people relatively bad advice.

[Caveman]

The main problem there is that it's an odd thing that goes on in the fitness/training industry, for some reason every regular person think they know what they're talking about.

The most qualified physicist in the world could tell someone something about physics, they'll be listened to and the person will agree.

The best trainer/physiologist in the world could tell someone something about training, you can damn well bet that person's going to argue with them about it.

[540Ninja]

I've been waiting for a post like this forever. Especially the bullshit squats and milk routine, it's ridiculous.

Thank you, Zeff.

[Inkrepid]

The main problem there is that it's an odd thing that goes on in the fitness/training industry, for some reason every regular person think they know what they're talking about.

The most qualified physicist in the world could tell someone something about physics, they'll be listened to and the person will agree.

The best trainer/physiologist in the world could tell someone something about training, you can damn well bet that person's going to argue with them about it.

Not to mention the cult like following of squats and milk...

[Crazy Max]

18:47:11] ....... says:
Squats and milk. Ok, squats and milk is a relic from a time when men didn't have access to whey, or as many cheap protein alternatives. It's not the fucking 1940's. In today's day and age of mass production, the fat vs protein ratio of whole milk is garbage
[18:47:25] Nels // < says:
yess quoted
[18:48:16] ....... says:
And to base milk as your main staple is ludicrous. Use it as a supplement to your diet, but for fuck sakes, don't base most of your protein content on it. There's True Protein for cheap whey, you have tuna, a supermarket full of protein just waiting for you
[18:48:49] ....... says:
I'll show you kids how to get 100g's of protein in a meal any day of the week

The shit I want nigs to pay more attention to, is in bold. I'm dead serious on the last point too.


-You CAN lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. It requires a strict diet with no less than 1.7-2g's of protein/lb, but it's very achievable. Most people do not have the discipline to enjoy success with it though. So if you cannot follow a diet to a t, 100% of the time, don't bother.

-Belts do serve a purpose. It increases intra-abdominal pressure, allowing more weight to be lifted, and does add a bit more protection if used properly, i.e. not just slapping on the belt and throwing ab bracing out the window. If you're lifting maximal weight in squats and deads, a belt is not a poor investment. And to counter the whole core argument, what the fuck do you think core training is for? If you work your abs like a girl, then you're going to have the core strength of a little girl, regardless of belt use.

-Stop doing infinite crunches. Add some weight on your chest, for fuck sakes. Do some hanging leg raises with a medicine ball. Stop being a bitch about it. Work your abs heavy for once.

-There's nothing wrong with taking in more than 1g of protein per lb. It's not going to murder your liver, it's not going to be a "waste". I take in 1.5-2g's per lb daily, and am experiencing very quick gains and recovery. A bit more is better than a bit less, any day.

-I'm seeing people doing low rep tricep exercises and things of that nature. Accessory muscles respond better to higher reps. Just because your posterior chain loves 3 rep sets, doesn't mean your arms will.

-Cycle your maximal strength work ( 3 reps or lower.) 3 weeks on at a time is a good measure. Your CNS can only take so much, before your numbers begin to drop. This should be common sense, but apparently it isn't. If you want the best of both worlds, cycle 3 ME lifts, for 3 weeks, in addition to some supplementary hypertrophy work. Then when you cycle off, you'll have better numbers to rep out, and you won't be sacrificing any hypertrophy while on the ME weeks, because you will have something like DB bench for reps for chest. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[TysonTF]

It's ironic because I see the opposite in my gym: ARMS ARMS ARMS, and no legs. Where are the legs?

[Neo Dingsit.]

i had a good chuckle when i read this hahaha. very direct.

thanks for this zeff :good:

[jan]

Good thread! I always thought the squats and milk thing was just a joke for taking the piss though.

I've been trying to tell people the "inifinite crunch" thing for ages. People seem to think the abdominal shizzle reacts magically different to stuff than other muscles, as if they consisted of different muscle fibers.

[Scott]

Unless of course you're me and your entire body thrives on doing sets of 150 reps just to see if you can do it.

[Alpha Moth]

just a quick stupid short question.. so, if i am doing marks program, 5 X 5, i'll be gaining strength more than size? If I want to get "bigger" muscles and not worry so much about strength, what kind of rep range would I then be looking for?=/

[Rahf]

If you're going mainly for hypertrophy, 8-12 reps seems to be some sort of consensus. I like to say that 1-20 reps builds the best.

[frankinstine]

Unless of course you're me and you're whole being is about being a huge cunt.

Fixed.:tongue:

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

This is quite true, but I still plan to go to the gym, squat & drink milk post-workout in 10minutes or so - certainly works for me. I agree with Rahf that reps of around 20 induce hypertrophy the most, in my experience at least. 150 reps is crazy scott, I've done 70rep squats before when I had to, they're pretty boring / annoying.

[Crazy Max]

just a quick stupid short question.. so, if i am doing marks program, 5 X 5, i'll be gaining strength more than size? If I want to get "bigger" muscles and not worry so much about strength, what kind of rep range would I then be looking for?=/

Strength is the foundation though. You're not going to get big with a 95lb squat. Let's say you did a 95lb squat for 12 reps for 3 weeks.You might get to 115-125 by the end of the 3rd week. Now lets say you dropped down to 3 reps, you'd probably start at 135, and rep 165-175 by the last week. Now if you started to do 8-12 reps after your 3 week cycle, you most likely will be repping no less than 135lbs, which is 10lbs more than what you would have got doing high reps alone.

It's not a perfect example, but the real point is that higher volume work on major lifts works better when you actually have numbers worth talking about.

[Skippy]

Crazy Max: Meh, to an extent. There are a lot of people I've seen and hang with who are much stronger than I am (I'm not strong at all), but I was still bigger than, even though for a long time I just delved on high rep training despite I couldn't lift much.

IMO, Just do whatever you want.

[tpvlyrm]

everyone is wrong

[Nicholai]

Awesome post about squats and milk. It is pretty retarded how people have jumped on the bandwagon, thinking their obvious fat gains are actually acceptable "bulks".

[Nicholai]

This is quite true, but I still plan to go to the gym, squat & drink milk post-workout in 10minutes or so - certainly works for me.

If you don't mind me asking, didn't you get up to around 200 lbs and then drop back down to the 170s? Was there a reason for cutting almost 30 lbs?

[stefano]

3. Squats and milk -- shut the fuck up you faggots. Drinking whole milk is the dumbest fucking shit I've heard, especially the massive quantities you guys are drinking. Squats and milk is a relic from a time when men didn't have access to whey, or as many cheap protein alternatives. It's not the fucking 1940's.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. I've been pointlessly drinking full cream milk for a few months and just got fat... But now I drink loads of skimmed (which is way better). If I had any other access to quick and easy protein then I would drink as much skim milk as i do (3+ a day).

All other points are true, I aswell know that doing 5x5 and focusing on nothing else but the legs and lower back is not the best, even though i still do it (Well I do the olympic lifting routine that Honken posted in the stickied thread), and try to do some bicep curls, tricep extensions a little when I have time.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

If you don't mind me asking, didn't you get up to around 200 lbs and then drop back down to the 170s? Was there a reason for cutting almost 30 lbs?
It wasn't the milk per se. It was the eating around 5000kcal a day for the small type of person I am, & I was in a rush to be strong for my weight.

[anfeyd]

Crazy Max didn't you just start lifting? If so, shut up.

[Rahf]

I haven't done high volume work in many months and am stronger than ever.

[cain2kill]

ok so basically what im doing is a 15 rep for 3 sets mainly in a lot of my exercises + ofc eating loads of tuna fish and anything that comes to my hand ( healthy) is this 15/3 all shit to bulk up...the thing i got is if i normally squat 95 i could easily do explosive training and squat 140/150 if i wanted to (maybe due to the height) but not 15 reps of. this example mainly goes for every training, what should i do to bulk up... go for explosive or remain what im doin?

[tpvlyrm]

fuck off

[Caveman]

Aiden was it a very lean 170 or were you still soft?

Crazy Max your example is ridiculous haha.

Cain2kill go read everything you can get your hands on.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Lean as in around '10% BF'. I'll probably be posting pictures in the physique thread soon.

[Lees Dragon]

This thread is a battleground for lifters.

I love it! :smile:

[Crazy Max]

Crazy Max didn't you just start lifting? If so, shut up.

I actually lifted before in the past. I went from 120-178, and then down to 148 (70-80 hour weeks for several months). I picked it up again almost 2 years ago, went up to 163,and then got two infections that left me puking every time I coughed (all the time) for nearly two months. I lost a ton of weight there (139lbs), and now Zeff pushed me to get back in the gym, so I'm at it again. I actually wrote more than half of this shit too.

I just shared some of my gains, as I'm recovering, because I was stoked on how quick I've been able to add weight to my lifts and put on lean mass. I figured this forum would have like-minded people trying to help each other rather than cut each others throats. Nothing has changed. It's the same shit, with different people. It's childish and pathetic.

[compleks]

It's a shame you feel like that.
Of course there is some shit talking, it's the internet. But the majority of people posting here try to be helpful, and there is generally plenty of good advice.

[anfeyd]

I was merely saying that I don't think anyone should be giving advice if they haven't experienced it for themselves.

[Colonel]

5. Giving shitty advice. If you don't know what you're talking about, just shut the fuck up. Learn from those who have had success.



I was merely saying that I don't think anyone should be giving advice if they haven't experienced it for themselves.

There seems to be some sort of pattern.. xD

[Zeff]

Crazy Max is actually fairly well versed with training type information, and has a good grasp on things already. Though I'd say he still has a shitload to experience for himself, and a ton to learn, he's got the knowledge to give good advice and I can see him being one of the biggest ballers who posts on this forum in a short time. Take heed...

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

First of all, all you idiots complaining about getting a little fat are whimps. I can also bet that 100% of you weren't doing things properly anyway.

The reason any type of strength training is advocated in this forum is because it's the most beneficial type of training you can do in the weight from for 1. your tricking(performance & injury prevention) & 2. your general quality of life, with size as a bonus & something that can be controlled through diet manipulation.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. I've been pointlessly drinking full cream milk for a few months and just got fat... But now I drink loads of skimmed (which is way better). If I had any other access to quick and easy protein then I would drink as much skim milk as i do (3+ a day).

All other points are true, I aswell know that doing 5x5 and focusing on nothing else but the legs and lower back is not the best, even though i still do it (Well I do the olympic lifting routine that Honken posted in the stickied thread), and try to do some bicep curls, tricep extensions a little when I have time.How much were you drinking? Were you even following a strength program correctly?

I've been waiting for a post like this forever. Especially the bullshit squats and milk routine, it's ridiculous.

Thank you, Zeff.Have you even tried it? Did you get stronger? That is the aim of the program after all. It isn't some kind of magnificent 'hypertrophy' routine for all you idiots who only care about your biceps.

just a quick stupid short question.. so, if i am doing marks program, 5 X 5, i'll be gaining strength more than size? If I want to get "bigger" muscles and not worry so much about strength, what kind of rep range would I then be looking for?=/Mark's program is 3 x 5. If hypertrophy is your main goal then higher reps would be preferable.

1. Stop neglecting your arms, or upper body in general. Just because legs are "HARDCORE" and squats apparently stimulate the most growth, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be bench pressing big numbers, or doing bicep curls. It's as if you guys think you're so superior by doing legs 3/4 days, and neglecting everything else. Wake the fuck up and realize that that will get you fucking no where. The arms play a critical role in several leg dominant exercises. Neglecting them will simply hold you back. Balance is key.

2. "Strength training is the end all, fuck hypertrophy training" - average goon. Well guess what, you're wrong asshole. 5x5 is overrated. Strength training does not always = low reps. Both hypertrophy and strength based routines benefit each other.

3. Squats and milk -- shut the fuck up you faggots. Drinking whole milk is the dumbest fucking shit I've heard, especially the massive quantities you guys are drinking. Squats and milk is a relic from a time when men didn't have access to whey, or as many cheap protein alternatives. It's not the fucking 1940's. In today's day and age of mass production, the fat vs protein ratio of whole milk is garbage. You're all under the impression that you're making awesome gains, when you're really just adding several pounds of fat for no good fucking reason.

4. Scale weight doesn't mean shit. Worry about the weight on the bar, the weight on your belt, the weight you're pulling, rowing, and pressing. If you're eating over maintenance, progressively overloading, and using a good routine with adaptations when necessary, the weight will come. If you try and move the scale x amount every week, you'll gain more fat than necessary.

5. Giving shitty advice. If you don't know what you're talking about, just shut the fuck up. Learn from those who have had success.
1. For a starter we don't train body parts, we train useful movements. Rippetoes & Starr's type of programs don't neglect arms anyway, maybe to you aesthetic gaylords it does. The reason for such a focus on key movements, which apparently neglect arms is because they're the most useful for all sports & it needs to be drilled into your head that arms aren't everything so there is a slight over emphasis on "legs", you're only going to go do tricep extensions after being coached how to squat correctly anyway.

2. Partially true. There's a difference between focusing on strength, focusing on hypertrophy & trying to get the best of both worlds. Obviously the results from strength training will mainly be strength, & hypertrophy results mainly hypertrophy & intermediate to those two would be a little of both. If you take a look around & realise you're in a tricking forum then obviously the type of training that helps tricking would be the one being advocated the most, just like if you was in a body-building forum the best training for that will be advocated.

3. Milk is a cheap choice / alternative & works just as good as whatever stupid creatine/whey powders you're all buying. It's also a good way to get in the calories you need to support growth & strength gains. Obviously the GOMAD(gallon of milk a day) is a bit dogmatic in the sense that some people require less calories than others & vice versa, not to mention the fact that it is assumed that you're still eating solid foods throughout the day too which will also be contributing to your caloric / nutrient intake.

4. I don't think worrying about scale weight is much of a problem anyway. "Worry about the weight on the bar, the weight on your belt, the weight you're pulling, rowing, and pressing" sounds like you're talking about strength training there, something you seem quite against. The things you should be 'worrying' about or rather, concerned about depends entirely on your goals. Worry about scale weight if you want to lose or put on weight. Worry about the weight on the bar if you're strength training or worry about the mirror if you want to train for hypertrophy.

5. I agree. You should practice what you preach.

[Colonel]

Oh it's on now! haha

[Birch]

http://sickr.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/donkeykong.jpg

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

http://www.maniacworld.com/donkey-kong.jpg
http://www.retroland.com/retrotalk/userfiles/Donkey_Kong.jpg

[tuareg]

I drank whole milk every day during my bulk, but the fat i gained was probably from the calories i ate, like aiden. I mean, i was eating like a crazy haha, it's not just the work of milk.

Also, i used to squat 209, now i can squat 286 (almost ATG).

[Alpha Moth]

Ok, if my goal is for bigger muscles, what is a good hypertrophy program? Is there anything in between? I still want to get stronger, but for now looking a bit nice would be my main goal .__.
also, could one just focus strength training on the legs, and work hypertrophy on the upper body?

[Kris]

Ok, if my goal is for bigger muscles, what is a good hypertrophy program? Is there anything in between? I still want to get stronger, but for now looking a bit nice would be my main goal .__.
also, could one just focus strength training on the legs, and work hypertrophy on the upper body?

Yes you can. Research the hollistic training approach. It should fit youre training desires. "looking a bit nice" is mainly done through diet.

[tpvlyrm]

Just everyone fucking do something, anything, and keep your eyes open and be observant about what's happening to your body. Aim to, as soon as possible, become reliant on no advice but your own. People talk absolute shit, all the time, and the only way anyone succeeds with lifting, or anything for that matter, is if they figure out what works for them.
Everyone is fucking wrong, forget it.

[Caveman]

Remaining as balanced as possible in this;

On the whole milk thing, I think it's a good tool for people who don't have the funds to be buying excessive amounts of food, however a gallon a day would workout around 3000kcals, which when added to a regular food diet would end up way too many calories for most people, however a few pints a day mixed with some protein powder is a decent enough choice.

Training arms etc does come in useful for strength work so neglecting them saying its for useful movements is kind of negated, giving yourself some extra arm strength will only help for all the other strength movements so not training them would be holding you back. Starting strength doesn't promote any of it because the people the programs for do not need it, however once you get beyond that beginner stage accessory work is useful.

Bashing on Aiden about the whole getting fat thing is kind of a mute point I think, as he says he dropped back down to 10% bodyfat, so yes whilst he did put on too much fat probably, he pulled it back down again and has learnt something about his calorie intake. So as long as he's made some solid strength gains which he appears to have done who cares, training is about learning what works for you to get results.

[Zeff]

1. For a starter we don't train body parts, we train useful movements. Rippetoes & Starr's type of programs don't neglect arms anyway, maybe to you aesthetic gaylords it does. The reason for such a focus on key movements, which apparently neglect arms is because they're the most useful for all sports & it needs to be drilled into your head that arms aren't everything so there is a slight over emphasis on "legs", you're only going to go do tricep extensions after being coached how to squat correctly anyway.

2. Partially true. There's a difference between focusing on strength, focusing on hypertrophy & trying to get the best of both worlds. Obviously the results from strength training will mainly be strength, & hypertrophy results mainly hypertrophy & intermediate to those two would be a little of both. If you take a look around & realise you're in a tricking forum then obviously the type of training that helps tricking would be the one being advocated the most, just like if you was in a body-building forum the best training for that will be advocated.

3. Milk is a cheap choice / alternative & works just as good as whatever stupid creatine/whey powders you're all buying. It's also a good way to get in the calories you need to support growth & strength gains. Obviously the GOMAD(gallon of milk a day) is a bit dogmatic in the sense that some people require less calories than others & vice versa, not to mention the fact that it is assumed that you're still eating solid foods throughout the day too which will also be contributing to your caloric / nutrient intake.

4. I don't think worrying about scale weight is much of a problem anyway. "Worry about the weight on the bar, the weight on your belt, the weight you're pulling, rowing, and pressing" sounds like you're talking about strength training there, something you seem quite against. The things you should be 'worrying' about or rather, concerned about depends entirely on your goals. Worry about scale weight if you want to lose or put on weight. Worry about the weight on the bar if you're strength training or worry about the mirror if you want to train for hypertrophy.

5. I agree. You should practice what you preach.

1. Yes, we do train body parts haha, wtf? "Aesthetic gaylords", go fuck yourself, Aiden. You're a prime example of the type of people I directed this post at. The type of people who think they're infinitely hardcore for focusing on legs and scoffing at anyone who trains for hypertrophy because it's not as "muss" as lifting for strength, or because they aren't working legs every day of the week ahah. You took my whole post completely wrong. I'm suggesting that people like you start considering arm/grip work more, and you're turning around and telling me that I think arms or everything. Wrong asshole. I train my legs 1-2 times a week, and usually alternate between various strength and hypertrophy specific workouts. Not that it matters, but I'd bet I still squat/deadlift/benchpress more than you anyway. You're talking to me as if I'm some uneducated frat boy who supersets tricep extensions with reading the newspaper.

2. Yes, obviously strength-specific routines are ideal for someone looking to become a better tricker, and intermediates will help both aspects. You're nitpicking and you know it. My point is that hypertrophy training does have a place in a strength training routine haha.

3. No, milk is not as good as these "stupid whey powders" haha.

4. Again, I'm not against strength training. When I say "worry about the weight on the bar...", I'm saying manipulate the weight on the bar etc. to achieve your specific goals, not worry about increasing poundage obviously.

[jan]

NO ZEFF YOU SPEAK BULLCRAP DAMMIT LOL WEIGHT??? WHO WANTS TO GET STRONGER I MEAN LOL YOU CAN TURN INTO RONNIECLOEMANFROMJUSTDOINGATONOFREPSFORA TONOFSETSWITHLYKEONEHUNDREDANDTHIRTYPOUNDSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ON THE BAR.

[Alpha Moth]

Would it be better for someone who has only a few months experience with still not that high numbers on the bar to focus on strength or hypertrophy? Or both at the same time?=/

[Zeff]

YEAH FUCK MUSSELS!!!1

[Zeff]

Would it be better for someone who has only a few months experience with still not that high numbers on the bar to focus on strength or hypertrophy? Or both at the same time?=/

I'd suggest a more strength specific routine for the first few months for sure.

[Zeff]

"STUPID WHEY POWDERS!!!!1" *CHUGS A GALLON OF WHOLE MILK* - AIDEN BLOODAXE

[Ashtar]

Bicep curls? Besides aesthetics or applying a choke, is there a point? I do a rep sometimes when I am lifting a preloaded barbell off a rack I guess.

[Hez]

Ooiieeeeeaaaahhh leave the personal attacks out on both sides and we actually have a relatively civil debate between someone who trains primarily for "physique" benefit and someone who trains for le strong man strong legs benefit, which is interesting for me and possibly others to read.

[Alpha Moth]

I'd suggest a more strength specific routine for the first few months for sure.

I've done marks for a few months, my only weakness is my squat still, the other numbers have gone up pretty well. I'd rather look good and be a little bit strong, then be super strong and fat from the milk =/

[Counterfeit Soda]

3. Milk is a cheap choice / alternative & works just as good as whatever stupid creatine/whey powders you're all buying. It's also a good way to get in the calories you need to support growth & strength gains. Obviously the GOMAD(gallon of milk a day) is a bit dogmatic in the sense that some people require less calories than others & vice versa, not to mention the fact that it is assumed that you're still eating solid foods throughout the day too which will also be contributing to your caloric / nutrient intake.

Just a point, that protein powder can be bought cheaper than milk for the equivalent amount of protein. You're also a lot less likely to get sick from drinking the equivalent nutrients from protein shakes each day, than from a gallon of whole milk a day.

So unless you're getting your milk from some secret source, or it just happens to be extremely cheap where you are, it's not really a cheap alternative.

[Ashtar]

I am not sure why you guys are bashing milk. Milk is not just for protein, it is for calcium.

I think it is good to have something with fat in it (such as milk) when you are taking your multivitamin. If you happen to be a person who does not get much sunlight (or have much subdermal cholesterol for the sunlight to hit) then your bones benefit from Vitamin D supplementation.

Your body needs some fat in the diet with the Vitamin D to eat it because it is fat-soluble and not water-soluble. The same applies to stuff like B vitamins (I think) and VitE, an antioxidant.
BUT BUT I THOUGHT DOING 100 PUSHUPS WOULD MAKE YOU STRONGER :agony:
It does.

[Counterfeit Soda]

Bicep curls? Besides aesthetics or applying a choke, is there a point? I do a rep sometimes when I am lifting a preloaded barbell off a rack I guess.

Why do powerlifters and strongman competitors train exercises that they don't do in competition?

[Caveman]

I've done marks for a few months, my only weakness is my squat still, the other numbers have gone up pretty well. I'd rather look good and be a little bit strong, then be super strong and fat from the milk =/

Your squat shouldn't be your weakness if you've been doing starting strength, I'd get a form check done.

For the strength/aesthetic thing, you have to gain strength to gain the muscle to look good, a 60kg max bench press just isn't enough strength/weight to have given substantial muscle growth so you have to get stronger to gain size.

However getting ridiculously fat to gain the strength isn't necessary, you probably will have to gain some fat though to get to a bigger level of strength, however getting ridiculously fat is not.

[Alpha Moth]

Yea, I guess.. the hardest part for the squat for me, is coming up, when my ass is down, then to come up is really hard =/ So, it would be better to just focus on strength, then rather a hypertrophy/strength thing at the same time?
Also doesnt help when I only have about 80kg to squat anyway at home, and I'm too poor to go to a gym to squat more =/ or to buy more weights.Though I guess 80kg is enough for a few months for things like bench press, rowss etc until I'm back in australia (4-5 months or so)

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

1. Yes, we do train body parts haha, wtf? "Aesthetic gaylords", go fuck yourself, Aiden. You're a prime example of the type of people I directed this post at. The type of people who think they're infinitely hardcore for focusing on legs and scoffing at anyone who trains for hypertrophy because it's not as "muss" as lifting for strength, or because they aren't working legs every day of the week ahah. You took my whole post completely wrong. I'm suggesting that people like you start considering arm/grip work more, and you're turning around and telling me that I think arms or everything. Wrong asshole. I train my legs 1-2 times a week, and usually alternate between various strength and hypertrophy specific workouts. Not that it matters, but I'd bet I still squat/deadlift/benchpress more than you anyway. You're talking to me as if I'm some uneducated frat boy who supersets tricep extensions with reading the newspaper.

2. Yes, obviously strength-specific routines are ideal for someone looking to become a better tricker, and intermediates will help both aspects. You're nitpicking and you know it. My point is that hypertrophy training does have a place in a strength training routine haha.

3. No, milk is not as good as these "stupid whey powders" haha.

4. Again, I'm not against strength training. When I say "worry about the weight on the bar...", I'm saying manipulate the weight on the bar etc. to achieve your specific goals, not worry about increasing poundage obviously.Zeff, I don't think I'm infinitely hardcore for training "legs" every time I train, my opinion of 'masculine' training isn't necessary here. I train my 'whole body' every time I train. Neither was I directly bashing you. I'm saying that the majority of the advice given on this forum is directed at improving tricking performance. You probably are stronger than me, what's your point? I'm 'naturally' quite a weak fellow. After all, my novice progression has taken a year to diminish(with only a few set backs) & I have only managed to get up to 310lbs 3 x 5.

What arm / grip work do you suggest I do? Why are you so concerned about people like me who supposedly neglect our arms. I do horizontal & vertical pressing as well as vertical pulling(press,bench press & chin-ups), that's all that is necessary for my goals. I wouldn't call that a lack of training my "arms" because I do the same amount of movements for my "legs" (squat,deadlift & power clean).

& prove to me that whey powders are better than milk :tongue:

[Caveman]

Yea, I guess.. the hardest part for the squat for me, is coming up, when my ass is down, then to come up is really hard =/ So, it would be better to just focus on strength, then rather a hypertrophy/strength thing at the same time?
Also doesnt help when I only have about 80kg to squat anyway at home, and I'm too poor to go to a gym to squat more =/ or to buy more weights.Though I guess 80kg is enough for a few months for things like bench press, rowss etc until I'm back in australia (4-5 months or so)

A strength based program will help beginners more, as you get a lot of neurological gains as well as muscular gains due to the fact that your muscles are being used properly for the first time.

If you're lacking weight go for variations of exercises or do a shaeder and put something together to increase the resistance.

Edit; Aiden once you get to a certain point those exercises alone are not going to be enough to get improvement, hence zeff saying avoiding them completely is a bad idea.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Ooiieeeeeaaaahhh leave the personal attacks out on both sides and we actually have a relatively civil debate between someone who trains primarily for "physique" benefit and someone who trains for le strong man strong legs benefit, which is interesting for me and possibly others to read.
Bask in the ambience, Hez.

[Lees Dragon]

I want to add that whey is win.
But it would be idiotic to completely abondon milk thinking its useless or unbeneficial.
Milk is just as good as whey.

So long as u kno how to use these things to your advantage.
I just thought I might murmur something in the middle of this raging battle of honour and glory. :smile:

[Matt K]

So unless you're getting your milk from some secret source, or it just happens to be extremely cheap where you are, it's not really a cheap alternative.

http://www.businessethics.ca/blog/uploaded_images/tom-green-cow-777931.jpg

[tdmonster]

You could cut the tension with a knife. I did milk and squats. I wasn't exactly informed of whey to milk price ratio. Although the milk and squats program was an enjoyable hell. Between the squat days, I had a bench program. I got great results. I got a little chubby I'll admit, but I think a good amount of it has gone away. It was a fast way to bulk and I enjoyed it, but I probably wont do it again, because of the fat increase. Also my cock got smaller, which sucked

[jan]

There is never more debate and disagreement than in the subjects of nutrition and training.


... and religion, but fuck that.


Milk can apparently induce allergies when consumed in too big amounts, according to a chemist and nutritionist I know (who's the uncle of my female). And I'm pretty sure "a gallon of milk per day" amounts to "too much". He makes allergy medication and similar things, and has created a good portion of good stuff that's on the market.

Also, 1 kg of whey is (at least in Norway) infinitely cheaper than the same amount of pure protein in milk alone. Not to mention that whey is pretty high in leucine IIRC?

And you'd have to drink 3/4th less to get the same amount of proteins, and you'd be able to customize your own pre/post-workout/morning/whatever shake a lot better, and not get a huge ton of carbs and fats in the same meal three times a day.


EDIT: Not to mention that huge amounts of milk makes your semen smell awefully rank.

[Dingo]

Can you still make gains if you just drink a couple of glasses of milk? I also remember someone saying that only teenagers or newcomers can lose a bit of bodyfat and gain muscle. Is this true?

[jan]

No.

Eat 4-5 good and diverse meals a day, and you'll be fine.

And again: No.


http://mrfitness101.tripod.com/john1.jpg

[Dingo]

Thank you for the response. Simple and to the point. I try to eat varied throughout the day already, so I am ok.

[jan]

Just remember to eat until you're somewhat full 4-5ish times, and not just "a granola bar" :P

[Zeff]

Zeff, I don't think I'm infinitely hardcore for training "legs" every time I train, my opinion of 'masculine' training isn't necessary here. I train my 'whole body' every time I train. Neither was I directly bashing you. I'm saying that the majority of the advice given on this forum is directed at improving tricking performance. You probably are stronger than me, what's your point? I'm 'naturally' quite a weak fellow. After all, my novice progression has taken a year to diminish(with only a few set backs) & I have only managed to get up to 310lbs 3 x 5.

What arm / grip work do you suggest I do? Why are you so concerned about people like me who supposedly neglect our arms. I do horizontal & vertical pressing as well as vertical pulling(press,bench press & chin-ups), that's all that is necessary for my goals. I wouldn't call that a lack of training my "arms" because I do the same amount of movements for my "legs" (squat,deadlift & power clean).

& prove to me that whey powders are better than milk :tongue:

I'm feeling like a bit of an asshole since you didn't reply with a good Zeff bashing, haha. Some of my favourite upper body lifts would be (though I'm sure you're already doing plenty of these): military press, shoulder press, upright rows, one arm rows, hammer curls, cable rows, pull ups, skull crushers, pull overs, overhead tricep extensions, weighted dips, and plenty of other goodies. All of those promote some solid arm and growth in general.

I fucking love milk, though it's skim and I consume about 1/2 to a full litre a day usually.

A strength based program will help beginners more, as you get a lot of neurological gains as well as muscular gains due to the fact that your muscles are being used properly for the first time.

If you're lacking weight go for variations of exercises or do a shaeder and put something together to increase the resistance.

Edit; Aiden once you get to a certain point those exercises alone are not going to be enough to get improvement, hence zeff saying avoiding them completely is a bad idea.

Good post.

[tdmonster]

I love all of you. We should all be friends.

Except Guru

[TBoyd]

f whey
f milk

eat steak and hotdug and sausage

[Alpha Moth]

A strength based program will help beginners more, as you get a lot of neurological gains as well as muscular gains due to the fact that your muscles are being used properly for the first time.

If you're lacking weight go for variations of exercises or do a shaeder and put something together to increase the resistance.

Edit; Aiden once you get to a certain point those exercises alone are not going to be enough to get improvement, hence zeff saying avoiding them completely is a bad idea.
Ya, I get what you mean, guess also being impatient is also a problem. And also not having all the right equipment, because I also have to do floor presses instead of on a bench. Usually I can't follow ripps program to th book, here is something I would do..which is usually 2-3 times a week.
Squat/bulgarian split squat/pistols
floor press
weighted dips
weighted chin ups
calf raises
mini core workout

or
Squat/bulgarian split squat/pistols
overhead press
bent rows(was with a db, but my db only holds 33.5kg so now I have to use a bb)
weighted pull ups
calf raises
and mini core workout

[Swartz]

f whey
f milk

eat steak and hotdug and sausage

EMPHASIS ON THE SAUSAGE!

[Jackamaideshwang]

Nobody 'needs' milk, or whey to experience gains.
The "weight on the bar" is all relative, you may experience the same muscular gains as somebody using a larger weight, and as all muscle has the same strength, it only leaves the neural difference between fellows. I don't think a well trained nervous system is required to put on muscle, it's all relative to perceived effort or % of maximal possible contraction. Hypertrophy training is typically in the higher rep ranges, so as they get to around 11-12 reps, the muscle is contracting maximally (training to failure).

[Scott]

This thread is full of joy

[Epilim]

I really don't see the problem here.
This is a tricking forum after all and when you're looking for supplementary strength training focusing on legs and hips makes sense.
In addition people usually need to be told to do squats and deadlifts. Everyone's benching and curling as soon as they join a gym, it's the legs that are traditionally neglected (or perhaps more accurately, squats and deadlifts are neglected).

I think the advice here is generally pretty good. If not stated people usually know to ask for personal goals and then give advice based on them. It's not like everyone here is against hypertrophy training, it's just that there's less demand for it.

But if there's one thing people should be a bit more careful about it's keeping in mind that this is a tricking forum. When someone is looking to supplement their tricking with weight training don't give them routines that prevent any developement in tricks unless you're capable of accurately instructing them how to properly cycle weight training and tricking (or perhaps you just link them to anfeyd's sticky).

[Jackamaideshwang]

Thats a good point about the training loads Epilim, I think many people on the Training forums train more than what is optimal for tricking.
In rebuttal to my previous post, the initial decrease of neural inhibition which is accompanied by increases in strength allows for more of a maximal contraction. I guess strength training is beneficial initially. Touche!

[Chris H Laing]

Its funny that this thread is all about how much the advice here sucks, and people are giving advice in it...

[tpvlyrm]

Its funny that this thread is all about how much the advice here sucks, and people are giving advice in it...

Everyone should just keep their bullshit to themselves.

[Rahf]

Huge amounts of milk gives you a massive dosage of calcium, which is not a good thing. Not even a litre of milk gives you more than 100% of RDI. A big calcium intake has shown increased risk of prostate cancer.

Don't even bother about the "But everything gives cancer!!" excuse.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Toxic dosages of calcium from a lot of milk is nothing to worry about.

[tpvlyrm]

Huge amounts of milk gives you a massive dosage of calcium, which is not a good thing. Not even a litre of milk gives you more than 100% of RDI. A big calcium intake has shown increased risk of prostate cancer.

Don't even bother about the "But everything gives cancer!!" excuse.

How big?

[Rahf]

Toxic dosages of calcium from a lot of milk is nothing to worry about.

Toxicity

Abnormally elevated blood calcium (hypercalcemia) resulting from the over consumption of calcium has never been documented to occur from foods, only from calcium supplements. Mild hypercalcemia may be without symptoms or may result in loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, constipation, abdominal pain, dry mouth, thirst, and frequent urination. More severe hypercalcemia may result in confusion, delirium, coma, and if not treated, death. Hypercalcemia has been reported only with the consumption of large quantities of calcium supplements usually in combination with antacids, particularly in the days when peptic ulcers were treated with large quantities of milk, calcium carbonate (antacid), and sodium bicarbonate (absorbable alkalai) (1). This condition was termed milk alkalai syndrome and has been reported at calcium supplement levels from 1.5 to 16.5 grams/day for two days to 30 years. Since the treatment for peptic ulcers has changed, the incidence of this syndrome has decreased considerably (3).

Although the risk of forming kidney stones is increased in individuals with abnormally elevated urinary calcium (hypercalciuria), this condition is not usually related to calcium intake, but rather to increased excretion of calcium by the kidneys. Overall, increased dietary calcium has been associated with a decreased risk of kidney stones. However, in a large prospective study, the risk of developing kidney stones in women taking supplemental calcium was 20% higher than in those who did not take supplements (25). This effect may be related to the fact that calcium supplements can be taken without food, eliminating their beneficial effect of decreasing intestinal oxalate absorption.

Based on the adverse effects discussed above, as well as the potential for decreased absorption of other essential minerals (see below), the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine set the tolerable upper level (UL) of intake for calcium in adults at 2,500 milligrams (mg) of calcium/day (3).

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/calcium/

So Zeff's outrage against the gallon of milk binging is a sound one. 1 litre a day is fine. A gallon (US gallon ~ 3,8l) is just stupid.

Calcium and prostate cancer:

We have previously found a positive association between milk consumption and prostate cancer risk using meta-analysis to analyze published case-control studies. In the present study, further meta-analysis was conducted to estimate the summary relative risk (RR) between the consumption of milk and dairy products and prostate cancer from cohort studies published between 1966- 2006. We found 18 relevant articles and 13 independent studies were available for our analysis. The summary RR was 1.13 (95% confidence interval = 1.02-1.24) when comparing the highest with the lowest quantile of consumption. The summary RRs by study stratification showed a positive association. A dose-response relationship was identified when combining the studies that partitioned the consumption by quintiles. We also evaluated the effects of some limitations, such as dairy classification, prostate cancer stages and publication bias, in the present study. These findings, together with the previous study, suggest that the consumption of milk and dairy products increases the risk of prostate cancer.

Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2007;16(3):467-76. Milk consumption is a risk factor for prostate cancer in Western countries: evidence from cohort studies.

Poke me if you want more references that look at this.

[Jackamaideshwang]

So its the milk, and not neccesarily the calcium thats the prostate cancer giver, seems to make sense if you look at all the hormones in milk and how prostate/breast tissue is sensitive to hormone shifts - and has cancers related to out of whack hormones etc. Or it could be that the prostate pools toxins, and the toxins from milk pool in the prostate - which may explain Jans idea that a lot of milk causes your semen to smell funky. Fuck that was unneccessary.

[jan]

I drink one regular carton of milk per day (which is exactly 1 litre), for shakes and oatmeal etc. I would never even consider drinking almost 4 litres of milk per day. You'd almost have to skip drinking water completely and just drink milk constantly.

I'm not lactose intolerant, but even I'd get a bloated stomach and runny poo from that amount, hahah.

[Alpha Moth]

GOMAD made my shits bad, I farted a lot too. And I was bloated. I have around 500-1000ml for oatmeal, etc, or a little more if I am aiming for a certain amount of calories and I can't afford food.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Rahf on point with the evidence as always.*poke*

My semen smells like sweet chlorine.

[Rahf]

So its the milk, and not neccesarily the calcium thats the prostate cancer giver, seems to make sense if you look at all the hormones in milk and how prostate/breast tissue is sensitive to hormone shifts - and has cancers related to out of whack hormones etc. Or it could be that the prostate pools toxins, and the toxins from milk pool in the prostate - which may explain Jans idea that a lot of milk causes your semen to smell funky. Fuck that was unneccessary.

It's not just dairy products.

Calcium intake was an independent predictor of prostate cancer (relative risk (RR) = 1.91, 95 percent confidence interval (CI) 1.23-2.97 for intake > or = 1183 vs. < 825 mg/day), especially for metastatic tumors (RR = 2.64, 95 percent CI 1.24-5.61), controlling for age, family history of prostate cancer, smoking, and total energy and phosphorous intakes. High consumption of dairy products was associated with a 50 percent increased risk of prostate cancer.

Cancer Causes Control. 1998 Dec;9(6):559-66. Dairy products, calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D, and risk of prostate cancer (Sweden).

The multivariate relative risk (RR) of prostate cancer for > or =2,000 mg/day compared to <1,000 mg/day of calcium intake was 1.63 (95% confidence interval (CI), 1.27-2.10; p trend < 0.0001). Total dairy intake was also positively associated with risk of prostate cancer. The multivariate RR of prostate cancer comparing extreme quintiles of intake was 1.26 (95% CI, 1.04-1.51; p trend = 0.03). However, no association with total dairy intake remained after we adjusted for calcium (p trend = 0.17). Findings were similar by stage and grade of prostate cancer. The results from this large prospective study suggest that intake of calcium or some related component contained in dairy foods is associated with increased prostate cancer risk.

Int J Cancer. 2007 Jun 1;120(11):2466-73. A prospective study of dietary calcium, dairy products and prostate cancer risk (Finland).

In our CPS-II Nutrition Cohort, the association between high calcium intake and prostate cancer does not appear to be as strong as reported in previous prospective studies. In the Health Professionals Study, calcium intake (>=2000 mg/day) was strongly associated with prostate cancer risk, with RRs of 1.71, 2.97, and 4.57 for total, advanced, and metastatic prostate cancer. In addition, risk of prostate cancer was independently associated with both dietary and supplemental calcium and with milk intake.

Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention Vol. 12, 597-603, July 2003

So what I'm still saying is, Jeff is right about the gallon of milk a day being shit advice. How anyone can consume more than a litre a day is beyond me, since that's my upper limit personally.

[stefano]

I find milk a really good and easy source of great protein:/ i drink atleast 3 a day which is 105g+ proteins from milk only, and the rest from other shit.

[The Laughing Man]

Zeff is a faggot. Shut the fuck up.

This forum overall has very decent advice.

[Ashtar]

according to a chemist and nutritionist I know Neither of those titles are regulated, I can call myself a chemist and a nutritionist without repercussion. It is true too, because I took basic chemistry and nutrition, even though I know shit all about the complexities of them.

Allergies are an immune system issue, they're more biologically based, and what immune systems overreact to varies a great deal on genetic predisposition (lactase production for example) and probably environment or the quality of milk.

Huge amounts of milk gives you a massive dosage of calcium, which is not a good thing. Not even a litre of milk gives you more than 100% of RDI. A big calcium intake has shown increased risk of prostate cancer.

Don't even bother about the "But everything gives cancer!!" excuse.I won't bother with that excuse, but I will leave you with this:

RDI is fucking bullshit. People's requirements for calcium vary a great deal based on lifestyle, diet, environment, size, etc.

Muscles use calcium for contracting. If you are doing more muscle work you need more calcium.

Do you drink caffeine? Caffeine and other acidic-type stuff leech calcium to help keep the blood's PH regulated and stuff. Or maybe it gets used in digestion or something, I dunno, but if you have caffeine, you need more calcium.

Do you not always get as much vitamin D (or sunlight) as you need? Do you get it in sporadic amounts so possibly times when you have calcium you could be low on it? If that's the case, then your body may just not absorb that calcium, and you poop it out (or perhaps pee, I am not totally sure, maybe both).

They design RDI for average people with average lifestyles. They have to take into account small people they don't want to overdose on it, who perhaps do not have good systems for elimination.

Just looking it up now, it's linked to low levels of vitamin D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate_cancer#Diet

So the problem may not be high calcium so much as inadequate vitamin D to properly absorb it. They add it to stuff like cod liver oil I think.

Calcium isn't mentioned except pointing to this one reference which is just an ISBN number, so I don't know where to go next to confirm that for you.

[jan]

God fucking dammit, I hate the back button. I just deleted a huge post.

He's studied chemistry and nutrition for about 10 years, and he's worked in the field for about 15 years as well. His average income is about $3-400 000 a year, and he's creating allergy meds and various medicines for the pharmaceutical companies. When he said he wouldn't let his kids drink more than 1 litre of milk per day, I take his word for it.

Though I'm sure you know better than him. You haven't even lived 25 years yet, but I'm sure your experience and knowledge vastly surpasses his. You're Ashtar, after all.

99% of all calcium is used in bone and teeth, and it's also used for creating attachment points for the muscles. Less than 1% is in extra/intracellular fluids.

Caffeine's effect on calcium intake is marginal, at best. Studies show that drinking caffeine can offset the calcium reducement by drinking as little as a couple of tablespoons of milk.

(First reference I could find: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12204390?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum )

As for vitamin D: You'd have to not eat any kind of fish (salmon, makerel OR tuna), not drink any forms of vitamin D- enrichened milk or eat enrichened cheese, not to mention neverrrr being in the sun (since the body even produces vitamin D from exposure to sunlight), not to mention that yoghurt, margarine, fish liver oils and various pastries all contain vitamin D, sometimes even fortified with extra vitamin D, just because.

I mean, I live in Norway. We hardly have any sun for months at a time (before and around Christmas). We averagely still don't suffer from vitamin D deficiencies, though breast-fed kids, dark-skinned immigrants and really really old people who never go out are more exposed to getting deficiencies. They've offset this by adding vitamin D to most milks, cheeses, butters and pastries however.

I learnt this from one semester of basic nutrition studies. I wonder what the dude with 10 years of experience might know about this... Probably less.

[tpvlyrm]

Muscles do not use calcium for contracting.

I'm not sure why you put that sentence in.

[jan]

O shite, I removed it.

Though it only initiates muscle contraction in smooth muscle, roight? Not skeletal muscle?

[tpvlyrm]

Allergies are an immune system issue, they're more biologically based, and what immune systems overreact to varies a great deal on genetic predisposition (lactase production for example) and probably environment or the quality of milk.

Remember that an inability to digest milk is not a true allergy - call it an intolerance if you like. It's not an immune reaction to it, you see.

[tpvlyrm]

O shite, I removed it.

Though it only initiates muscle contraction in smooth muscle, roight? Not skeletal muscle?

Nah, it's involved in all muscle contractions.

As you mentioned, though, it has no bearing on the issue of dietry calcium requirements (for the purposes of this thread).

[Rahf]

Neither of those titles are regulated, I can call myself a chemist and a nutritionist without repercussion. It is true too, because I took basic chemistry and nutrition, even though I know shit all about the complexities of them.

Allergies are an immune system issue, they're more biologically based, and what immune systems overreact to varies a great deal on genetic predisposition (lactase production for example) and probably environment or the quality of milk.

I won't bother with that excuse, but I will leave you with this:

RDI is fucking bullshit. People's requirements for calcium vary a great deal based on lifestyle, diet, environment, size, etc.

Muscles use calcium for contracting. If you are doing more muscle work you need more calcium.

Do you drink caffeine? Caffeine and other acidic-type stuff leech calcium to help keep the blood's PH regulated and stuff. Or maybe it gets used in digestion or something, I dunno, but if you have caffeine, you need more calcium.

Do you not always get as much vitamin D (or sunlight) as you need? Do you get it in sporadic amounts so possibly times when you have calcium you could be low on it? If that's the case, then your body may just not absorb that calcium, and you poop it out (or perhaps pee, I am not totally sure, maybe both).

They design RDI for average people with average lifestyles. They have to take into account small people they don't want to overdose on it, who perhaps do not have good systems for elimination.

Just looking it up now, it's linked to low levels of vitamin D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate_cancer#Diet

So the problem may not be high calcium so much as inadequate vitamin D to properly absorb it. They add it to stuff like cod liver oil I think.

Calcium isn't mentioned except pointing to this one reference which is just an ISBN number, so I don't know where to go next to confirm that for you.

Hello mr. Ad Hoc Argument.

Who do you trust Ashtar? Your own gullible notion that "this does not apply to me or anyone specific", or the general guidelines that have been set on the basis of scientific research?

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

I drink 1/2 a gallon of milk a day with no concious effort. I'm not denying these studies, but the chances of them being done on sedentary / barely just healthy individuals are very high & therefore is less applicable to those of us who are highly active & train very hard, because in general the hard working athletes need & can handle more of every nutrient.

[Rahf]

I drink 1/2 a gallon of milk a day with no concious effort. I'm not denying these studies, but the chances of them being done on sedentary / barely just healthy individuals are very high & therefore is less applicable to those of us who are highly active & train very hard, because in general the hard working athletes need & can handle more of every nutrient.

No, the difference isn't as huge as you imagine.

[Neo Dingsit.]

No, the difference isn't as huge as you imagine.

exactly what i was about to post.

no offence intended towards you, aiden but it's worrying how much advice you've been giving. i'm not sure if this thread would be directed at you specifically. :worry:

accumulating knowledge on nutrition is an ongoing process and you should always be willing to change your habits based on what you learn. drinking a large quantity of whole milk just isn't sensible for obvious reasons. you're almost advising a "dirty bulk", which is generally a bad idea for any athlete; especially tricksters who require a decent amount of relative strength.

it seems people are too authoritative in this section. everyone's fighting to be "in charge".

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

No, the difference isn't as huge as you imagine.Hm, I'll take this into account, what do I know about this stuff anyway?

exactly what i was about to post.

no offence intended towards you, aiden but it's worrying how much advice you've been giving. i'm not sure if this thread would be directed at you specifically. :worry:

accumulating knowledge on nutrition is an ongoing process and you should always be willing to change your habits based on what you learn. drinking a large quantity of whole milk just isn't sensible for obvious reasons. you're almost advising a "dirty bulk", which is generally a bad idea for any athlete; especially tricksters who require a decent amount of relative strength.

it seems people are too authoritative in this section. everyone's fighting to be "in charge".
Haha, "dirty bulk". I rarely give advice in general anyway, let alone nutritional advice, so it shouldn't be worrying at all.

[Neo Dingsit.]

look at what's in 4 litres of whole milk. :good:

i take it you've made 9000+ posts about absolutely nothing :worry:

[Caveman]

4 Litres whole milk = 3000kcals roughly, as I've said before is a ridiculous amount to add on to food as well.

The only study for the calcium/prostate cancer I found that I could actually read properly was based on a lot older guys 50+. Not that I'm saying the link isn't there etc, but I think at a younger age with less chance of developing cancer anyway, over smaller periods of time, say a couple of months, I don't think the risk would be too high.

I'm not advocating drinking 4 litres of whole milk a day at all, I drank 2 litres a day mixed with whey for a while and it worked well with other foods at making a regular bulk (not an insane amount like 5/6000+ calories).

Edit; and rahf there's no point trying to discuss things with ashtar, it's well known he posts the most inane/odd/useless things around on here.

[Rahf]

Edit; and rahf there's no point trying to discuss things with ashtar, it's well known he posts the most inane/odd/useless things around on here.

Oh I've known this for a long time. I was responding to him so that noone else thinks that he's making sensible remarks.

[The Laughing Man]

This is good stuff guys!

What are you guys all studying? I'm doing first year university now, doing a physiology subject, it's good to be finally studying some interesting stuff.

For reference I don't really drink much milk nowadays, but the max I ever did was probably a little bit over a litre a day, and it was low fat(2%) milk. If I was trying to bulk up, I imagine I'd try and get 1 litre of low fat milk in everyday.

[jan]

I'm studying nutrition for the second semestre in a row (and basic training principles, thoug that class is pure outdated ass), and I'm going to do a bachelor in physioterapy after summer. I've studied psychology 101 and 102 at uni, as well as had my examen philosophicum as well (one semestre of philosophy).

[Jackamaideshwang]

Any more contraversial subjects?
Actual reasons for squats being the major leg exercise in a tricker's rountine?
Actual reasons for pretty much avoiding middle-long distance running at all costs in the advice for trickers?
Actual reasons for the current obsession of "muss"? Could it be that people are drawn to tricking for social comparative reasons?
Actual reasons for nobody actually doing or reporting a really tailored tricking workout?

[The Laughing Man]

I'm studying nutrition for the second semestre in a row (and basic training principles, thoug that class is pure outdated ass), and I'm going to do a bachelor in physioterapy after summer. I've studied psychology 101 and 102 at uni, as well as had my examen philosophicum as well (one semestre of philosophy).

Cool, I'm hoping to start physiotherapy next year too if my grades are high enough to transfer(im doing "Bachelor of Health Sciences/Master of Podiatric Practice now, this 1st year is the same as "Bachelor of Health Sciences/Master of Physiotherapy"). It's a bachelor/masters double degree, but its basically the same as the bachelor of physio, just cooler :tongue:

I'm doing a psych related subject this sem and next too, i find its really interesting to listen to the lecture, but the work is a bit boring.

For my entire 4 year course, I have one elective subject to pick for next semester. They all look shit as lol, I'm hoping there's a nutrition subject made available!

[jan]

That's cool! Podiactric practice? Is that foot-area diagnosis stuffage?

Bachelor/masters double degree? Cool! How long does it take? A full bachelor + master in physio is about 5 years over here.

[The Laughing Man]

That's cool! Podiactric practice? Is that foot-area diagnosis stuffage?

Bachelor/masters double degree? Cool! How long does it take? A full bachelor + master in physio is about 5 years over here.

Yeah its pretty much the qualification you need to be a podiatrist, its equivalent to a bachelor i think, but sounds cooler, and must have some advantages?

I'm only doing it to try and get into physiotherapy lol. But if I can't get in, being a foot physio is the next best thing!

Both are 4 year courses, then you can work as a physio with a masters. Would maybe still do another masters after a few years of working though, sports physio or something.

[Caveman]

Currently studying physiology with sports science and nutrition, I'll probably go into medicine afterwards.

[anfeyd]

Actual reasons for squats being the major leg exercise in a tricker's rountine? Actual reasons for pretty much avoiding middle-long distance running at all costs in the advice for trickers?
Actual reasons for the current obsession of "muss"? Could it be that people are drawn to tricking for social comparative reasons?
Actual reasons for nobody actually doing or reporting a really tailored tricking workout?

1. Debatable
2. The energy system is far too different for it to have any carry over. The energy and time demand takes away from other more things for a trickster to do.
3. There aren't many people in the world that don't care about aesthetics, it's just the nature of the beast. Besides, a handful of people this forum isn't really a high number.
4. Many people do dynamic kicks, which, is a more 'sport specific' workout. As far as getting more specific and devoting an offseason with more specific movements, it can be done, but I'm not sure how beneficial it would be. I would rather trick so I don't spend the time to find out. Since tricking isn't defined by anything but the personal goals of the trickster having a 'tailored' tricking workout is rather silly.


I just finished a bachelors in Health and Physical Activity and it was a grand waste of thousands of dollars and a lot of my time.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

look at what's in 4 litres of whole milk. :good:

i take it you've made 9000+ posts about absolutely nothing :worry:
Juji changed my post count when I mentioned something to him & I think Dave C changed it again when he moonfaced me with this cool avatar.

[tpvlyrm]

[re: middle-distance running]
2. The energy system is far too different for it to have any carry over. The energy and time demand takes away from other more things for a trickster to do.

If we're talking about ~5-mile runs or something, then I reckon the benefits are currently well understated. We're still under the trend of sprints and HIIT, so longer running is unpopular generally, but I think many people could find that it improves their, well, everything.

Firstly, the very fact that it's quite removed, metabolically, from high-intensity stuff like tricking and lifting, is presumably why it can so easily be performed, in relatively high volumes, without negatively impacting on them. Unlike sprinting, which breaks me down and is a huge drain on recovery.
When I run regularly, I recover from lifting workouts subjectively 30-50% faster, and feel able to perform more volume in the workouts. Also my general "wind" feels much much better, in going about daily life.

Now, my body is strucurally, and I imagine metabolically, well suited to middle-distance running. I am very good at it no matter how infrequently I actually run - and so I'm not surprised that doing it makes me feel great, all round. Lifting, generally, doesn't make me feel good. Some people perhaps find that running wears them down and doesn't improve their health and fitness, whereas heavy singles make them feel awesomez for weeks. But I kind of imagine that most people would benefit from middle-distance running. A few miles at a decent pace, two or three times a week, makes you feel so "healthy", clean, quick and jumpy.


If it helps, it helps. Currently I think middle-distance running is unfairly demonised - though the pendulum will swing back eventually, I guess.

[anfeyd]

I doubt the majority of tricksters could run 5 miles, let alone allow it to serve as recovery work. I'm not saying its useless, i'm just saying it's very unpractical.

And, as I said before, tricking is self regulated. People trick because they like to trick. Rarely do tricksters have an offseason because there are no seasonal boundaries for those that have the proper facilities. This make offseason 'conditioning' or 'sport specific workouts' unpractical to begin with, because they would rather just trick. While an offseason may be useful to give the body a rest, unless tricking goes pro anytime soon, it's just not reasonable enough to think people would care enough to actually program anything beyond doing the fucking tricks. People will lift to benefit their tricking, only, if they enjoy lifting (and those who think lifting will magically turn them into the best trickster ever are misguided). People will run if they like to run.

When you look at tricking in itself, a fast explosive movement occurs, then you rest. Then you do it again. There is such a minimal aerobic component that the adaptations from running (improved cardiorespiratory endurance) will have a minimal carry over.

[tpvlyrm]

I doubt the majority of tricksters could run 5 miles, let alone allow it to serve as recovery work. I'm not saying its useless, i'm just saying it's very unpractical.

And, as I said before, tricking is self regulated. People trick because they like to trick. Rarely do tricksters have an offseason because there are no seasonal boundaries for those that have the proper facilities. This make offseason 'conditioning' or 'sport specific workouts' unpractical to begin with, because they would rather just trick. While an offseason may be useful to give the body a rest, unless tricking goes pro anytime soon, it's just not reasonable enough to think people would care enough to actually program anything beyond doing the fucking tricks. People will lift to benefit their tricking, only, if they enjoy lifting (and those who think lifting will magically turn them into the best trickster ever are misguided). People will run if they like to run.

When you look at tricking in itself, a fast explosive movement occurs, then you rest. Then you do it again. There is such a minimal aerobic component that the adaptations from running (improved cardiorespiratory endurance) will have a minimal carry over.

Can't anyone run five miles? I'd have thought certainly the demographic this site attracts would have no problem with it. Adults and fat people probably couldn't even walk it.

I wasn't thinking of off-season work, just regular running in the background.

Yea, I appreciate that by that reasoning running "shouldn't" help, but it certainly does for me - I am much better at tricking-type stuff if I run as well. All my joints feel better, and I feel stronger and healthier all round. Basically it just improves my whole constitution, and that is felt in any other activity. I suspect many other people would experience the same.

[jan]

Running regularily on concrete made my shin splints worse. It was not fun.

[Shaedar]

VIKING HEEL STRIKING !

[Shaedar]

...post...

All my joints feel better, and I feel stronger and healthier all round. Basically it just improves my whole constitution, and that is felt in any other activity. I suspect many other people would experience the same.

:good:
But it's no fun if I over do it (6 times a week)

[Jackamaideshwang]

A tailored tricking routine that I had in mind didn't involve an offseason, or too much major differential periodisation. A tailored tricking workout I think would involve non-tricking training 2-3 times a week max, with some sprinting, plyometrics, explosive specific exercises like jump lunges, jump squats, some OL, a 20 min run every 2nd week etc with 3-4 days of tricking a week if need be. This would allow tricking and a tailored workout to compliment each other.
I'm currently doing some offseason periodisation in preparation for tricking, with hypertrophy, then strength then power, then start tricking and hopefully do the tailored tricking workout along with it.

[tuareg]

i only run when i cut, wich starts erm today haha.

but anyway, i like running. it's good to see how far you can push yourself (without dying, ofc). i feel like i could do anything after a nice trying run.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Muscles use calcium for contracting. If you are doing more muscle work you need more calcium.

Do you drink caffeine? Caffeine and other acidic-type stuff leech calcium to help keep the blood's PH regulated and stuff. Or maybe it gets used in digestion or something, I dunno, but if you have caffeine, you need more calcium.Could this be the explanation of adding milk to tea, coffee etc? & that it isn't actually just a stupid custom over here(UK).

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

I like sprints. Not too keen on distance any more, plus it's on the opposite side of the metabolic requirement spectrum of which I'm training which may hinder things. I used to be quite the distance / endurance athlete though.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Heres some bunches of nice words which applies to tricking and running.
The Relationship Between Aerobic Fitness and Recovery from High Intensity Intermittent Exercise.
Sports Medicine. 31(1):1-11, 2001.
Tomlin, Dona L.; Wenger, Howard A.
Abstract:
A strong relationship between aerobic fitness and the aerobic response to repeated bouts of high intensity exercise has been established, suggesting that aerobic fitness is important in determining the magnitude of the oxidative response. The elevation of exercise oxygen consumption (V-dot2) is at least partially responsible for the larger fast component of excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) seen in endurance-trained athletes following intense intermittent exercise.

Replenishment of phosphocreatine (PCr) has been linked to both fast EPOC and power recovery in repeated efforts. Although 31P magnetic resonance spectroscopy studies appear to support a relationship between endurance training and PCr recovery following both submaximal work and repeated bouts of moderate intensity exercise, PCr resynthesis following single bouts of high intensity effort does not always correlate well with maximal oxygen consumption (V-dot2max). It appears that intense exercise involving larger muscle mass displays a stronger relationship between V-dot2max and PCr resynthesis than does intense exercise utilising small muscle mass.

A strong relationship between power recovery and endurance fitness, as measured by the percentage V-dot2max corresponding to a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L, has been demonstrated. The results from most studies examining power recovery and V-dot2max seem to suggest that endurance training and/or a higher V-dot2max results in superior power recovery across repeated bouts of high intensity intermittent exercise.

Some studies have supported an association between aerobic fitness and lactate removal following high intensity exercise, whereas others have failed to confirm an association. Unfortunately, all studies have relied on measurements of blood lactate to reflect muscle lactate clearance, and different mathematical methods have been used for assessing blood lactate clearance, which may compromise conclusions on lactate removal.

In summary, the literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate removal and enhanced PCr regeneration.


Of course, there is a balance, and overtraining aerobic capacity will likely cause inhibit the ability to generate and enhance strength.
Robert C. Hickson1

(1) Department of Physical Education, University of Illinois at Chicago Circle, Box 4348, 60680 Chicago, Il, USA
Summary The purpose of this study was to determine how individuals adapt to a combination of strength and endurance training as compared to the adaptations produced by either strength or endurance training separately. There were three exercise groups: a strength group (S) that exercised 30–40 min·day–1, 5 days·week–1, an endurance group (E) that exercised 40 min·day–1, 6 days·week–1; and an S and E group that performed the same daily exercise regimens as the S and E groups. After 10 weeks of training, VO2 max increased approx. 25% when measured during bicycle exercise and 20% when measured during treadmill exercise in both E, and S and E groups. No increase in VO2 max was observed in the S group. There was a consistent rate of development of leg-strength by the S group throughout the training, whereas the E group did not show any appreciable gains in strength. The rate of strength improvement by the S and E group was similar to the S group for the first 7 weeks of training, but subsequently leveled off and declined during the 9th and 10th weeks. These findings demonstrate that simultaneously training for S and E will result in a reduced capacity to develop strength, but will not affect the magnitude of increase in VO2 max.

The study may have overtrained individuals, with the results of that appearing at week 7.
It's probably bad to train endurance on the same day Comparison of two regimens of concurrent strength and endurance training.

BASIC SCIENCES/REGULATORY PHYSIOLOGY

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 22(3):348-356, June 1990.
SALE, D. G.; JACOBS, I.; MACDOUGALL, J. D.; GARNER, S.
It is concluded that same day (vs different day) concurrent strength and endurance training may impede strength development without impeding hypertrophy. On the other hand, same day training may enhance increases in CS activity but not VO2max or weight lifting endurance.


The strength, coordination and fatigue resistance that can be developed in the lower leg from running could serve a protective role against ankle injuries as well, which isn't really considered by many.
Intrinsic Risk Factors for Inversion Ankle Sprains in Male Subjects
A Prospective Study
Tine Marieke Willems, PT, PhB*,, Erik Witvrouw, PT, PhD, Kim Delbaere, PT, PhB, Nele Mahieu, PT, Ilse De Bourdeaudhuij, PSY, PhD and Dirk De Clercq, PE, PhD
From the Department of Rehabilitation Sciences and Physiotherapy, and the Department of Movement and Sports Sciences, Ghent University, Ghent, Belgium

Hypothesis: Measurable intrinsic factors might predispose male athletes to ankle sprains.
Study Design: Cohort study; Level of evidence, 2.
Methods: A total of 241 male physical education students were evaluated for possible intrinsic risk factors for inversion sprains at the beginning of their academic study. The evaluated intrinsic risk factors included anthropometrical characteristics, functional motor performances, ankle joint position sense, isokinetic ankle muscle strength, lower leg alignment characteristics, postural control, and muscle reaction time during a sudden inversion perturbation. Subjects were followed prospectively for 1 to 3 years.

Results: A total of 44 (18%) of the 241 male subjects sustained an inversion sprain; 4 sprained both ankles. Cox regression analysis revealed that male subjects with slower running speed, less cardiorespiratory endurance, less balance, decreased dorsiflexion muscle strength, decreased dorsiflexion range of motion, less coordination, and faster reaction of the tibialis anterior and gastrocnemius muscles are at greater risk of ankle sprains.

Conclusion: Based on our findings, it is suggested that running speed, cardiorespiratory endurance, balance, dorsiflexion strength, coordination, muscle reaction, and dorsiflexion range of motion at the ankle are associated with the risk of ankle inversion sprains in male subjects.

It seems that running may be able to reduce some of these risk factors.

[anfeyd]

These studies really mean nothing to me because there aren't many sports with a similar metabolic requirement that tricking possesses.

In summary, the literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate removal and enhanced PCr regeneration.

Since lactate doesn't even come into play it all, who cares? How do they define, 'high intensity intermittent exercise'?

[anfeyd]

A tailored tricking routine that I had in mind didn't involve an offseason, or too much major differential periodisation. A tailored tricking workout I think would involve non-tricking training 2-3 times a week max, with some sprinting, plyometrics, explosive specific exercises like jump lunges, jump squats, some OL, a 20 min run every 2nd week etc with 3-4 days of tricking a week if need be. This would allow tricking and a tailored workout to compliment each other.
I'm currently doing some offseason periodisation in preparation for tricking, with hypertrophy, then strength then power, then start tricking and hopefully do the tailored tricking workout along with it.

Until you start tricking, don't plan a workout for your, 'inseason'.

If you are tricking 3-4 days a week, and doing plyometrics 2 days a week good luck because there is absolutely no point. If anything do your explosive work a block leading into tricking and then completely abort it whenever you are in season.

[Jackamaideshwang]

I thought repeated intermittant high intensity exercise practically defined tricking. Only some of it mentioned lactate.
Replenishment of phosphocreatine (PCr) has been linked to both fast EPOC and power recovery in repeated efforts
PCr is really what concerns tricking.
I'd say the high intensity intermittent exercise was the sprint on a cycle ergometer, but It appears that intense exercise involving larger muscle mass displays a stronger relationship between V-dot2max and PCr resynthesis than does intense exercise utilising small muscle mass.

They probably measured this when sprinting or rowing.

Until you start tricking, don't plan a workout for your, 'inseason'.

If you are tricking 3-4 days a week, and doing plyometrics 2 days a week good luck because there is absolutely no point. If anything do your explosive work a block leading into tricking and then completely abort it whenever you are in season.
Until you start tricking, don't plan a workout for your, 'inseason'.Until you start tricking, don't plan a workout for your, 'inseason'.
It's not a solid plan, and I plan on experimenting to see what works the best. I was thinking plyo one a day week, and I reckon doing plymetrics whilst tricking would be worth it. You could do 20 failed frontflips on your ass, possibly injuring yourself, or you could do 20 depth jumps or other plyo with much less risk of injury and then do higher, safer frontflips after(assuming plyo gets you what you need for the trick).

[Origional]

It's not a solid plan, and I plan on experimenting to see what works the best. I was thinking plyo one a day week, and I reckon doing plymetrics whilst tricking would be worth it. You could do 20 failed frontflips on your ass, possibly injuring yourself, or you could do 20 depth jumps or other plyo with much less risk of injury and then do higher, safer frontflips after(assuming plyo gets you what you need for the trick).
Do you have other goals than getting better at tricks? (higher jump, ect.). Personally, I have severely cut back on my tricking times since starting lifting, and I can barely handle the workload as it is (physically, not mentally :tongue:). I am slowly learning that the only way to get better at tricks is to trick often, while always trying something new and committing 100%. Keep it simple. That day spent doing plyo would be better spent just tricking.

Just my humble opinion.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

your humble fact

[anfeyd]

PCr is really what concerns tricking.
I'd say the high intensity intermittent exercise was the sprint on a cycle ergometer, but
They probably measured this when sprinting or rowing.

Probably rowing or cycling because it's easier to test. Both of these are so beyond tricking I don't care. I'd rather trick and get better tricking than run distance in hopes my phosphocreatine stores will replenish at a more rapid rate.


It's not a solid plan, and I plan on experimenting to see what works the best. I was thinking plyo one a day week, and I reckon doing plymetrics whilst tricking would be worth it. You could do 20 failed frontflips on your ass, possibly injuring yourself, or you could do 20 depth jumps or other plyo with much less risk of injury and then do higher, safer frontflips after(assuming plyo gets you what you need for the trick).

No plyometric will enable you to perform the trick better outside of the trick itself--its the most sport specific plyo exercise for the trick you can get.

Chances are you're going to land on your ass because you lack technique, not because you lack vertical jump. Take Jan for example. Badass trickster, not a very good jumper (from what I remember).

[anfeyd]

Not to mention the host of plyometric activity that you will be doing in conjunction with 20 depth jumps which is, really, the limit that Verk. advised for elite athletes.

[Jackamaideshwang]

I think conditioning does play a part in tricking though, you can't say you will be entirely better off if you just trick. You will be skilled if you just trick, but your power may not have developed to it's full potential. Theres a skill and fitness side to tricking. Doing a 540 probably won't develop your ability to produce power as effectively as other forms of conditioning (you could be doing one legged squat jumps), the same goes with backflips, double legs etc. And the fact that the conditioning exercises are open-ended, with almost unlimited opportunity to improve in particular areas, whilst the development of height or efficiency in tricks is impacted by a whole lot of other hindering factors.
Of course, if you are only limited by skill and you have excellent physical charateristics, you may not feel the need to condition.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Anfeyd, It's coming at it from a safety/avoiding overuse injuries perspective, something trickers should be aware of if they wish to continue tricking for years to come. And your personal preference based on enjoyment is fine, the issue is with people saying running has no place in a tricker's routine. If a tricker has trouble recovering from tricks or maintaining intensity throughout a session, maybe running could be a good thing to advise.

Theres also the issue of drilling a trick into the ground, by repeated failed efforts. By completing conditioning exercises that are enough removed from the activity itself, you still develop the neccesary charateristics, yet don't impact the technique. (the whole ankle weights debate)

[Cicero]

This thread is lols

[anfeyd]

Anfeyd, It's coming at it from a safety/avoiding overuse injuries perspective, something trickers should be aware of if they wish to continue tricking for years to come.

Explain this. How can doing depth jumps while tricking 3-4 times a week be a good thing from an injury prevention standpoint? Almost all injuries are a result of an unplanned bad landing (something that is inevitable).

Theres also the issue of drilling a trick into the ground, by repeated failed efforts. By completing conditioning exercises that are enough removed from the activity itself, you still develop the neccesary charateristics, yet don't impact the technique. (the whole ankle weights debate)

You don't understand. Rarely, does one not have the physical characteristics needed to complete a trick. It comes down to mental focus and the ability to execute proper technique. If you can't 540 and you drill it into the ground all of the time, don't do some random shit plyometric, tornado kick until you float into the sky. All tricks are technique based, so you can't do an activity that will develop the necessary characteristics that don't involve some sort of the technique.

Maybe you will understand this whenever you actually can land one trick though, Jack.

[anfeyd]

I think conditioning does play a part in tricking though, you can't say you will be entirely better off if you just trick.

You don't get out of breath tricking unless you're a retard. It just doesn't happen. Low intensity exercise can be used as recovery, yes.


You will be skilled if you just trick, but your power may not have developed to it's full potential. Theres a skill and fitness side to tricking. Doing a 540 probably won't develop your ability to produce power as effectively as other forms of conditioning (you could be doing one legged squat jumps), the same goes with backflips, double legs etc.

In tricking, technical aspects are far more important than 'fitness' aspects as you call them. Doing 540's will develop your ability to do 540's, really. Sure a more generic sort of conditioning will help in a generic way. But, you still need to know how to fucking 540.

And the fact that the conditioning exercises are open-ended, with almost unlimited opportunity to improve in particular areas, whilst the development of height or efficiency in tricks is impacted by a whole lot of other hindering factors.
Of course, if you are only limited by skill and you have excellent physical charateristics, you may not feel the need to condition.

Ok Jack, you keep doing your off season conditioning routine in preparation for tricking. I'm going to go trick and lift and we'll see who better prepared at the end of the day as well as a better trickster (me).

[Rahf]

Has Rock_Ten truly returned?

[Lees Dragon]

Hahaha..

The TricksTutorials Conditioning Forum Horrors: Episode II: The Return Of Rock Ten


Ps..In my opinion the talk in her is getting waaay too scientific, I just cant keep up. :tongue:

[eddy wang]

Perfect Zeff, a well deserved Sticky There^^

[Jackamaideshwang]

Explain this. How can doing depth jumps while tricking 3-4 times a week be a good thing from an injury prevention standpoint? Almost all injuries are a result of an unplanned bad landing (something that is inevitable).
The depth jumps or other plyometric exercises or power based conditioning exercises aren't as variable as tricks, they're planned and controlled and simple, meaning there's alot less that can go wrong. So you could develop power from conditioning and be safer, or you could develop power by smashing your toes into the ground on a backflip or bruising your tailbone from frontflips. If you don't have much power in a trick, chances are you will get hurt, if you don't have much power in conditioning exercises, you will simply be using a lighter weight or jumping lower.
Anfeyd, you're pretty much saying that tricking has no physical component, and is only technique. That is ridiculous. There is a large skill component, and there is a physical component. The attention to each should reflect the tricker's need for each. Tricking more than conditioning is a good idea, I agree with that and recommended it before, but there is some physical aspect that should be developed. It's the reason gymnasts do conditioning exercises and not just their apparatus the whole time.
The ability to execute proper technique isn't entirely reliant on coordination, it ultimately requires the physical ability to perform the technique.
I guess I'm coming from when I felt didn't have the physical ability to perform some tricks, yet felt I had the skill. It may be your personal experience that you had the physical ability, yet didn't have the skill.

Ok Jack, you keep doing your off season conditioning routine in preparation for tricking. I'm going to go trick and lift and we'll see who better prepared at the end of the day as well as a better trickster (me).

I'm not sure why you included lifting in there, as lifting is a form of conditioning.
The offseason conditioning routine has nothing to do with what I was arguing, its more of a personal experiment, although it would be beneficial for trickers coming back from an injury or new trickers. I'm arguing that a tailored tricking conditioning routine whilst tricking ("trick and lift") would be beneficial for tricking performance.
(And running would have a very minor role, if any, in the routine, depending on the needs of the tricker)

What's with this rock ten stuff? Was he anfeyd's arch nemesis or something? I looked at some of his old posts and they're nothing like mine.

[Caveman]

rock ten was a guy who talked all about his theory for doing tricks/lifting etc but never did any of it.

Also anfeyds right, it's the same reason you often don't give athletes exercises that are similar to the motions they'll do in their sport.

Look at the majority of good trickers, very few of them have any kind of development or do any kind of conditioning work, they just trick all the time.

[Jackamaideshwang]

I wasn't saying to give exercises that alter the way a trick is performed, I'm pretty much saying that practically everyone does Starting Strength or their own little routine that has little benefit to tricking, and a tailored tricking workout will be much more beneficial.
Of course people can be ok by making up for lack of physical ability with skill, or vice versa, but enhancing both physical ability and skill will be most beneficial for tricking performance - this is my whole point. Please give good reason as to why a specific tricking workout and tricking will be ineffective in comparison to just tricking.

And just because the best trickers do something, doesn't mean they're doing the best things they can be doing, tricking is just developing after all.

[anfeyd]

The depth jumps or other plyometric exercises or power based conditioning exercises aren't as variable as tricks, they're planned and controlled and simple, meaning there's alot less that can go wrong.

I'm not arguing this. I'm arguing the fact that doing depth jumps while tricking 3-4 times a week is a good idea. It's not.


So you could develop power from conditioning and be safer, or you could develop power by smashing your toes into the ground on a backflip or bruising your tailbone from frontflips.

The most applicable power to any movement is the most similar movement to the action in question. It's specificity. I don't care how high you can depth jump off of a x inch box. Just because power helps tricking doesn't mean it is the ultimate. You're going to bust your ass doing front flips because your technique is shitty, not because you can't jump.


If you don't have much power in a trick, chances are you will get hurt, if you don't have much power in conditioning exercises, you will simply be using a lighter weight or jumping lower.

When attempting a new trick, you do not put forth 100% effort. It just doesn't happen. The movement is so foreign to the body and, mentally, there is a hesitance (a fear). At this stage, power is almost out of the window. Once a trick is mastered, then the application of power is more important. However, when trying a new trick (you wouldn't know this) the body just holds you back. There are some exceptions to this, and I'd imagine those that are rather fearless (i'd guess Pitlock) this doesn't happen.

So, your reasoning for this; to become powerful to prevent an injury when first attempting a trick, doesn't hold weight (from my experience). The strength and power will help the movements you already know how to do and are familiar enough with to consciously apply these elements.

Anfeyd, you're pretty much saying that tricking has no physical component, and is only technique. That is ridiculous. There is a large skill component, and there is a physical component. The attention to each should reflect the tricker's need for each.

Once you trick you will realize that the mental and skill aspects of tricking far outweigh the physical component. I'm not saying that there is no physical component.


Tricking more than conditioning is a good idea, I agree with that and recommended it before, but there is some physical aspect that should be developed.

Yes, which is why I recommend that most tricksters get strong (because many of them aren't). When you look at tricking, there is a lot of jumping, a lot of absorbing impacts. In an activity that is encompassed by, 'plyometrics', why would you train depth jumps INSEASON? If anything, a block of landings and jumping would be beneficial PRIOR to an inseason (to encourage proper landings, mostly) and then disregarded during the season in order to prevent excessive fatigue (that high intensity shock training methods are known to cause).

It's the reason gymnasts do conditioning exercises and not just their apparatus the whole time.
The ability to execute proper technique isn't entirely reliant on coordination, it ultimately requires the physical ability to perform the technique.

The ability to execute proper technique is directly related to their time on the apparatus haha. You're only going to get better on rings if you spend time on the rings. Granted there are other characteristics involved but as I mentioned before: tricking is a self driven activity. There are no awards, no teams. You trick because you like tricking, so the rules of offseason/inseason/anusseason can be disregarded. The only reason why some people take an 'offseason' is because they like lifting weights and they want to devote time to that (or due to weather).


I guess I'm coming from when I felt didn't have the physical ability to perform some tricks, yet felt I had the skill. It may be your personal experience that you had the physical ability, yet didn't have the skill.

What tricks? And what physical ability were you lacking? It certainly wasn't the ability of your muscle to replenish your creatine phosphate stores sooner, that's for sure.


I'm not sure why you included lifting in there, as lifting is a form of conditioning.
The offseason conditioning routine has nothing to do with what I was arguing, its more of a personal experiment, although it would be beneficial for trickers coming back from an injury or new trickers. I'm arguing that a tailored tricking conditioning routine whilst tricking ("trick and lift") would be beneficial for tricking performance.
(And running would have a very minor role, if any, in the routine, depending on the needs of the tricker)

Because, lifting is something that tricksters can benefit from. Tricksters already see enough jumping and landings during their sport. I covered this above.


The bottom line: the tricks you felt you didn't have the physical capacity to land, try them again right now after your conditioning. Are you going to land them immediately? No. Would you have landed it sooner if you just kept trying. Probably.

[anfeyd]

I wasn't saying to give exercises that alter the way a trick is performed, I'm pretty much saying that practically everyone does Starting Strength or their own little routine that has little benefit to tricking, and a tailored tricking workout will be much more beneficial.
Of course people can be ok by making up for lack of physical ability with skill, or vice versa, but enhancing both physical ability and skill will be most beneficial for tricking performance - this is my whole point. Please give good reason as to why a specific tricking workout and tricking will be ineffective in comparison to just tricking.

And just because the best trickers do something, doesn't mean they're doing the best things they can be doing, tricking is just developing after all.


Because Jack, tricksters don't get shit for tricking. It's not an organized sport that is ruled by a play clock, time boundaries, or rules.

People trick because they like to trick. They enjoy the mental battles, the feeling of landing new moves. They won't get an academic scholarship, or a professional career (minor exceptions). They don't want to spend time with a 'tailored tricking routine'. They just want to trick.

People lift weights because they want to look better naked. Often times someone want's it to benefit their tricking, but many times people don't. People trick because it makes them happy, they lift because it makes up for their penis being small.

But since you are so insistent, please, give me a 12 month periodized model of what you think a tricksters year should look like (by this I mean a focus for each block). Tell me why everything you have included is there.

[Caveman]

I wasn't saying to give exercises that alter the way a trick is performed, I'm pretty much saying that practically everyone does Starting Strength or their own little routine that has little benefit to tricking, and a tailored tricking workout will be much more beneficial.
Of course people can be ok by making up for lack of physical ability with skill, or vice versa, but enhancing both physical ability and skill will be most beneficial for tricking performance - this is my whole point. Please give good reason as to why a specific tricking workout and tricking will be ineffective in comparison to just tricking.

And just because the best trickers do something, doesn't mean they're doing the best things they can be doing, tricking is just developing after all.

For most people starting strength is a better option than a tailored tricking workout because most people who trick and don't work out don't need a tailored workout to get a lot stronger and get a lot of benefit.

What I said about athletes and similar movements is because they do enough of the movement that they don't need to do a separate similar movement and it could just lead to injury.

Yes but the best trickers simply put in the time and commitment and practise to get good, doing 100 back flips is better for getting better back flips then having done 10 back flips and squatted a lot.

[Jackamaideshwang]

I'm not arguing this. I'm arguing the fact that doing depth jumps while tricking 3-4 times a week is a good idea. It's not.
I'm seeing it your way now, the depth jumps don't appear to be appropriate. Would squat/lunge jumps or cleans, that type of thing serve a better purpose? I think we may be arguing similar things, just I may have been a bit vague earlier on.

The most applicable power to any movement is the most similar movement to the action in question. It's specificity. I don't care how high you can depth jump off of a x inch box. Just because power helps tricking doesn't mean it is the ultimate.

I agree with that as well, specificity is extremely important, but that's part of my argument as well, developing more specific exercises and routines to tricking. Lots of depth jumps may not be the best idea, but there would be plenty of tricking specific resistance based exercises that could enhance tucking speed, rotation speed, kicking speed, vertical jump etc that many trickers aren't employing.
Most of the time people lack the fitness component, be it strength, flexibility, power to perform the correct technique - if someone isn't tucking in a backflip, they may take a couple of weeks of backflips before their hip flexors and abdominals are strong enough to execute the proper technique. Or it may take a few weeks of drilling to get the blocking technique/push off required for an aerial.
What tricks? And what physical ability were you lacking? It certainly wasn't the ability of your muscle to replenish your creatine phosphate stores sooner, that's for sure.
I've tricked quite poorly for about 3 or 4 years, it was practically everything, I lacked functional strength for tricking. I only did a shitty upper body workout and lacked all strength and power in my legs, and also had very weak abdominals.
Because, lifting is something that tricksters can benefit from. Tricksters already see enough jumping and landings during their sport. I covered this above.
This is my point as well. I think you may have thought that plyometrics was the entire routine, I'd say I'd put in a bit of plyometrics though, but not really heavy stuff.
The bottom line: the tricks you felt you didn't have the physical capacity to land, try them again right now after your conditioning. Are you going to land them immediately? No. Would you have landed it sooner if you just kept trying. Probably.
The big offseason is obviously the slower route to landing tricks. A 2 day a week inseason specific tricking routine however, may or may not bring better results - it has explanations either way, I guess the only way to settle this is to get some real evidence for it.
In a study conducted recently in
our laboratory (Carroll et al. 2001), we demonstrated
that changes in the strength of specific muscles, brought
about by a resistance training program, have a systematic
influence upon the stability of synchronisation and syncopation
tasks. In so much as alterations in force-generating
capacity, brought about through changes in limb
posture (Carson and Riek 1998) or as a result of resistance
training (Carroll et al. 2001), have consistent and
predictable effects on the stability of coordination, the
potential force output of the component muscles engaged
in a motor task may be identified as a relevant constraint
This seems to support that specific conditioning may not be detrimental to skill aquisition, and may enhance it (although I'm possibly stretching it a bit).

[Jackamaideshwang]

Because Jack, tricksters don't get shit for tricking. It's not an organized sport that is ruled by a play clock, time boundaries, or rules.

People trick because they like to trick. They enjoy the mental battles, the feeling of landing new moves. They won't get an academic scholarship, or a professional career (minor exceptions). They don't want to spend time with a 'tailored tricking routine'. They just want to trick.

People lift weights because they want to look better naked. Often times someone want's it to benefit their tricking, but many times people don't. People trick because it makes them happy, they lift because it makes up for their penis being small.

But since you are so insistent, please, give me a 12 month periodized model of what you think a tricksters year should look like (by this I mean a focus for each block). Tell me why everything you have included is there.

I get that, and I'm going along a performance type line, rather than enjoyment and side interests. There are some trickers who just want to be good at tricking/the best they can, and maybe just tricking will do that for them or maybe some conditioning will help.
Holidays are coming up, so I might take you up on that 12 month plan, it would be good to get it down and get something to refine, then it will be a bit easier to see if conditioning is worthwhile for tricking or not. It would be cool to do an experiment with people new to tricking, and compare just tricking to tricking and conditioning with their performance.

[anfeyd]

I'm seeing it your way now, the depth jumps don't appear to be appropriate. Would squat/lunge jumps or cleans, that type of thing serve a better purpose? I think we may be arguing similar things, just I may have been a bit vague earlier on.

Why would you want to do them in the first place? Unless you're in a power block prior to ramping up your tricking volume there isn't much of any benefit.



I agree with that as well, specificity is extremely important, but that's part of my argument as well, developing more specific exercises and routines to tricking. Lots of depth jumps may not be the best idea, but there would be plenty of tricking specific resistance based exercises that could enhance tucking speed, rotation speed, kicking speed, vertical jump etc that many trickers aren't employing.

It's possible but like I said, I won't do them because i'd rather trick. I enjoy tricking and I don't want to devote any time to outside training, and I doubt many others do as well. Besides, many tricksters do basic kicks in some fashion, which, is probably the most applicable 'exercise'.

Most of the time people lack the fitness component, be it strength, flexibility, power to perform the correct technique - if someone isn't tucking in a backflip, they may take a couple of weeks of backflips before their hip flexors and abdominals are strong enough to execute the proper technique. Or it may take a few weeks of drilling to get the blocking technique/push off required for an aerial.

I don't think many people lack the fitness component. If you're not tucking in a backflip, you're not tucking. Are you telling me that a person can't do one bent leg hanging leg raise (essentially)? Weeks? A person can learn the backflip in a day--it's probably the easiest trick to do.


I've tricked quite poorly for about 3 or 4 years, it was practically everything, I lacked functional strength for tricking. I only did a shitty upper body workout and lacked all strength and power in my legs, and also had very weak abdominals.

And in 3-4 years you didn't develop into any 'tricking shape'? I doubt it.

This is my point as well. I think you may have thought that plyometrics was the entire routine, I'd say I'd put in a bit of plyometrics though, but not really heavy stuff.

Depth jumps are heavy.

The big offseason is obviously the slower route to landing tricks. A 2 day a week inseason specific tricking routine however, may or may not bring better results - it has explanations either way, I guess the only way to settle this is to get some real evidence for it.

This seems to support that specific conditioning may not be detrimental to skill aquisition, and may enhance it (although I'm possibly stretching it a bit).

Bondarchuk is notorious for employing sport specific exercises that many westerners wouldn't agree with. Strength is overrated.

[Lees Dragon]

Go anfeyd, Go!!
Tell him how it is!!! :tongue:

[Chris H Laing]

Yea jack you're getting shitted on...anfeyd knows his stuff

[Jackamaideshwang]

Why would you want to do them in the first place? Unless you're in a power block prior to ramping up your tricking volume there isn't much of any benefit.

Most people can't trick all of the time, so the 2 days would be suited to improving and maintaining the specific tricking fitness aspects. I think I was saying that all trickers should do a specific workout, which I admit is quite flawed. From a professional point of veiw, aiming for maximal results, it seems sensible to condition. You seem to have given good reason why no recreational tricker does a specific tricking workout. I would still like to make a tricking conditioning program plan though, just in case people did want some conditioning specific to tricking, maybe you could provide some input when I make it. Or are you saying that specific conditioning to tricking would not help, fullstop?

Bondarchuk is notorious for employing sport specific exercises that many westerners wouldn't agree with. Strength is overrated.

I don't understand that, was that against the western veiw of general strength, or just strength in general for trickers?

[Jackamaideshwang]

It seems like it will be similar to Chicanerous' sample routine, just with some more emphasis on specificity, flexibility, and injury prevention.

[anfeyd]

Most people can't trick all of the time, so the 2 days would be suited to improving and maintaining the specific tricking fitness aspects.

What aspects? You're saying that tricking two days a week, in itself, will not serve to maintain (if not improve) these aspects?

I think I was saying that all trickers should do a specific workout, which I admit is quite flawed. From a professional point of veiw, aiming for maximal results, it seems sensible to condition. You seem to have given good reason why no recreational tricker does a specific tricking workout.

If someone pays me a lot of money and is competing for something serious then more attention can be given.

I would still like to make a tricking conditioning program plan though, just in case people did want some conditioning specific to tricking, maybe you could provide some input when I make it. Or are you saying that specific conditioning to tricking would not help, fullstop?

It depends entirely upon the person. It can help to some degree (ie: make kicks faster, rotate faster) but there is a technical aspect that trumps all physical characteristics that can be developed.


I don't understand that, was that against the western veiw of general strength, or just strength in general for trickers?

Most tricksters would benefit from being stronger because they are weak. Once they get a bit stronger (2x bw deadlift / squat for example), whether any further increase in strength would be beneficial is highly questionable.

In the West, people just tell you to get strong and don't worry about anything else because they don't know better. I'm only generalizing it to the majority of tricksters because they are, first and foremost, weak. Adding to my position that tricking is an enjoyable hobby high levels of programming are silly and unnecessary.

[Shaedar]

WHEN WILL THIS END !??! :agony:

[Jackamaideshwang]

Haha, alrighty, I get the recreational aspect, and will let it be. I'll still make a program though (for complete athletic beginners most likely), should be good to stimulate some learning for me, not sure if I'll put it up here though. I like the idea of training professional athlete style, but that may just be me.
It seems to be cleared up, thanks for the discussion anfeyd.

[Lees Dragon]

I love Jack!! :smile:
Such a sport.

[mr popular]

Good sticky.

[JimmyKewl]

there is only one way to become godly power beast. you can run you can hide, but all you really want is imessuarable power. and only way t oachieve one`s perfection is to Play.

[ScythianWonder]

Isn't the old workout routine: WORKOUT UNTIL YOU CAN'T?

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

interesting way to exercise..

[luke walka]

so true

[Rint]

If ur advice was a woman I'd make love to it