Interactive Guide To Tricking Business Etiquette

[Ambitrixterous]

Hello online tricking community. For those who do not know, there is a very serious issue that must be addressed which involves distribution of the Loopkicks DVD in exchange for currency (or the lack thereof.) Short story is a couple of kids purchased the DVD and didn't get so much as an explanation of why their money was taken before contact was permanently lost with any representative from Team Loopkicks. This is a serious problem because if people look the other way when it happens to a couple of kids from around the states then what's to prevent it from happening in the future on a bigger investment like that of a potential camper? This is not a thread to bash Loopkicks, but rather a thread to raise awareness about this injustice. Please read below:



-- An open letter to Chris Devera --

Dear Chris D,

Over the past several months I have made numerous attempts to contact you through various online channels, as well as your personal cell phone and the personal lines of a few of your team members. Through all of my attempts I succeeded only twice; the first time I brought your attention to the DVD problem for which you assured me you would focus on the solution. The second you ventured only a single sentence to confirm that you had indeed intended to collect footage for some unknown project (which I only heard from Josh Durbin whom you had the time to contact to ask for it.) This is not a serious problem. I've heard from a few of your own team members that you lack the consideration to reply to them on a regular basis, so why would I expect any different for me?

If you feel no need to respect those around you who seek your inclusion and cooperation with a simple reply, that's fine. Most of us are big boys and we can take it. But when you turn your back on new trickers, strangers even, who have dedicated the attention to be able to pay you for a DVD you've created supposedly to promote our sport, you are officially damaging tricking as a whole. I cannot stand by and let you get away with it. Let's face it- the Loopkicks DVD is the only popular tricking media to come out that wasn't an internet/television short clip. To have something like this come out and build popularity only to lose credibility through accusations of theft just shows how immature and incapable those who would call themselves "promoters" of tricking can be.

This isn't about what a good or bad guy you are, we are all aware of how much of your time and energy you've dedicated to the sport overall and of course are grateful for it. This is about your actions as of late. Your claims of being impossibly "busy" do not hold up over a period of several months, especially when you have the time to post on TT. Everyone has things to do. Nobody is THAT busy. Since you have failed to provide even the most basic of explanations, since you have ignored messages from myself and others both direct and indirect, since you have refused to make any sort of simple apology to these kids who have looked up to you since they first read or heard the word "TRICKING," I am now bringing this issue to the community.

My hope is that it will finally strike a nerve in your brain to illicit action on your part to take responsibility and start acting like a grown up. People are tired of wasting effort to participate with you only to be met with silence. From someone who has admired and respected every single individual on Team Loopkicks since he himself was one of those kids mentioned in the above paragraph, I ask you to please help tricking. Please stand up and repair this rift you've created between integrity and your legacy.


-Daniel Perez de Tejada




TT- if you feel strongly that this issue needs to be resolved immediately, please post saying so. If you feel I am out of line in posting this letter please private message me and I will discuss any implications of this problem directly with you. You guys can read the thread that started this absurdity here:

http://www.club540.com/forum/general-discussion/problems-with-loopkicks/page1

[Kyle McLean]

-signed- Kyle McLean


edit: if you are confused...follow the link, to see what these kids have gone threw to try and receive there dvd

[Cory]

I love Chris, but I do agree with this.

-signed- Cory Brown

[Rudy]

i'm not really jumping on this, i just think we need to get things worked out either way.

[Ambitrixterous]

i'm not really jumping on this, i just think we need to get things worked out either way.

"Worked out" = what I've asked for in this letter. In what way are you not on this?

[Skilzat85X]

There's no point in making a big ethical or dramatic issue over this. Because it's not.

It's a business issue. Chris is legally required to send the DVD's upon receipt of payment, or refund their payment. What should have happened in the first place after he wasn't responding to e-mails was to contact a legal agent, not random young adults and teens on a message board.

Boycotting and petitioning won't mean a dang thing. Since this is just for tricking and not the mainstream Chris may feel that his it's ok to take a laid back approach to the distribution of the DVD's, but it's not, and it's quite unprofessional. If you want Chris to act professionally, you must respond professionally, and that means contacting legal entities, not asking for the ineffectual opinions (in regards to this situation) of kids on TT.

You can get a hundred TTers to post here and nothing will happen, or you could contact one legal agent and get the problem solved.

More than that, contacting the proper legal authorities in this regard will set a precedent for his future operations, making him adhere more strictly to professional stipulations.

[fullvernian]

wow, i had a feeling this would happen

the fact that it was sold over seas first and how long it took for them to start taking US orders really put me off........just didn't seem legit at time, so passed waited to see if others got it without problems

hope this all gets sorted out, Chris dee is a good guy..........theirs gotta be good reason

lets try and solve this calm and justly and show why were one of the tightest communities out other

[fullvernian]

There's no point in making a big ethical or dramatic issue over this. Because it's not.

It's a business issue. Chris is legally required to send the DVD's upon receipt of payment, or refund their payment. What should have happened in the first place after he wasn't responding to e-mails was to contact a legal agent, not random young adults and teens on a message board.

Boycotting and petitioning won't mean a dang thing. Since this is just for tricking and not the mainstream Chris may feel that his it's ok to take a laid back approach to the distribution of the DVD's, but it's not, and it's quite unprofessional. If you want Chris to act professionally, you must respond professionally, and that means contacting legal entities, not asking for the ineffectual opinions (in regards to this situation) of kids on TT.

You can get a hundred TTers to post here and nothing will happen, or you could contact one legal agent and get the problem solved.

More than that, contacting the proper legal authorities in this regard will set a precedent for his future operations, making him adhere more strictly to professional stipulations.

i agree

[Neo Dingsit.]

tricking and money was never a great combination in my book. sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

since money and friends don't mix all that well, and many of the tricking community are friends, any attempts to make money or even a living out of this is putting a lot at stake. it's a big responsibility that needs a lot of attention.

so with that said - signed.

although i think chris is a good guy.

You can get a hundred TTers to post here and nothing will happen, or you could contact one legal agent and get the problem solved.

you raise a good point, skilz, but don't overlook the fact that many potential buyers visit this forum. :good:

[Ambitrixterous]

There's no point in making a big ethical or dramatic issue over this. Because it's not.

It's a business issue. Chris is legally required to send the DVD's upon receipt of payment, or refund their payment. What should have happened in the first place after he wasn't responding to e-mails was to contact a legal agent, not random young adults and teens on a message board.

Boycotting and petitioning won't mean a dang thing. Since this is just for tricking and not the mainstream Chris may feel that his it's ok to take a laid back approach to the distribution of the DVD's, but it's not, and it's quite unprofessional. If you want Chris to act professionally, you must respond professionally, and that means contacting legal entities, not asking for the ineffectual opinions (in regards to this situation) of kids on TT.

You can get a hundred TTers to post here and nothing will happen, or you could contact one legal agent and get the problem solved.

More than that, contacting the proper legal authorities in this regard will set a precedent for his future operations, making him adhere more strictly to professional stipulations.

You're right about legal action being the only guaranteed course for the desired means, however the thread(s) were created to appeal to the driving force that's guided every action up till now: the trickers themselves. While this may be just an online message board, what many people on here fail to realize is that it is much more than that; it is a means of communication. This thread and the corresponding material have served to educate on this manner, and in fact anything ever posted has served to further the tricking community in the form of positive and negative feedback between people.

Again, it is not my hope that Chris will run into legal trouble and be forced to pay the consequences- that doesn't help any of us. What I want is to raise enough attention to this matter that it gets resolved in a way that everyone benefits. It's not the fact that it's simply DVDs which have gone missing, it's the principal that such an important and influential icon of our sport would fail in such a simple task. I want to stand up for those kids, and our sport in defending the very name of the community we are all a part of.

[Rudy]

Ok, I'm trying to stay out of this as much as possible, BUT....we need to get this cleared up as soon as possible. If things don't get cleared up it can get blown way out of proportion and end up in law suits, and in MAJOR trouble for LK. I realize that LK is like a major roll in the community, even though the hoard footage and kinda keep to themselves except for a major camp every year, but we need to make sure that justice is done. The guy who ordered the DVD needs to get his money back or to get a DVD.

I love Dee to death and the whole of LK but this needs to get worked out. Not trying to bash anyone, just want things to get worked out for the better of the tricking community as a whole, we don't want a bad rep.

[Skilzat85X]

Well in that case, why do we need to make a big show out of his shortcomings haha. On the one hand it seems like you're saying your doing it for the kids and others who haven't gotten their videos, on the other hands it seems like we're just trying to make an example of Chris.

Honestly, this discrepancy is quite separate from Chris D's involvement in tricking. It's very much the same as if someone from TT loaned Chris money, and he never paid them back. It's not related to Chris's involvement in the community or tricking itself, it's a personal issue. In this case, it's a business issue. Even though all the content is tricking themed, the principle of the matter is not really.

Sure, people should be made aware of this matter and educated about it, and the public attention should be more motivation for Chris to honor his deal.

But my point is, this issue isn't about Chris's involvement in the tricking community, it's about his business practices. It's about as far apart from the tricking community as are his table manners. The boycott thing is really unnecessary. If, after this ordeal, people feel they can't trust him to get them their DVD, then they won't buy it. If they think he will, then they will. Even though people should be made aware of this, it's sorta being blown out of proportion.

[dpitlock]

how dare you start drama without me

[Ambitrixterous]

Well in that case, why do we need to make a big show out of his shortcomings haha. On the one hand it seems like you're saying your doing it for the kids and others who haven't gotten their videos, on the other hands it seems like we're just trying to make an example of Chris.

Honestly, this discrepancy is quite separate from Chris D's involvement in tricking. It's very much the same as if someone from TT loaned Chris money, and he never paid them back. It's not related to Chris's involvement in the community or tricking itself, it's a personal issue. In this case, it's a business issue. Even though all the content is tricking themed, the principle of the matter is not really.

Sure, people should be made aware of this matter and educated about it, and the public attention should be more motivation for Chris to honor his deal.

But my point is, this issue isn't about Chris's involvement in the tricking community, it's about his business practices. It's about as far apart from the tricking community as are his table manners. The boycott thing is really unnecessary. If, after this ordeal, people feel they can't trust him to get them their DVD, then they won't buy it. If they think he will, then they will. Even though people should be made aware of this, it's sorta being blown out of proportion.

Dude you are not following this story at all. It's not as though this was an accident, or a single occurrence and that only the people posting in that thread are aware or affected before this post. This affects all of us.

Go to Youtube and search "Loopkicks DVD." Look how many views & comments are on those videos. Hundreds of thousands! And those are only the 'official' releases for it. That's not to mention how many people across the world still think tricking is actually called "loop kicks," and are re-posting chopped versions of this DVD. When we are a part of something that's just emerging, those are some seriously big numbers. Tricking is just an infant, and without going too deeply into some 'nurturing' metaphor, things like this just won't cut it. Word of this getting out very far could devastate the rate of progress that so many of us work to maintain.

If you read through the Club540 thread you will see that every attempt to keep this issue between the directly interacting parties has already been made. The kids can't reach him. His friends can't reach him. His own team can't reach him. What else can we do? The petition serves only as a means to show support on this topic. The boycott is the side only for those who feel strongly enough on the matter to retract their support of Loopkicks activities.

I am beyond disappointment, and I for one am against advising the attendance of this year's camp, nor will I make any attempt to attend it myself until I see evidence that this issue has been resolved.

[Skilzat85X]

Hmm I don't think my point was being taken so I'll just ask a couple small questions and hopefully we can get on the same page. I've read through the Club540 thread of course but I'm not sure how that relates to what I've said before.

This affects all of us.
How does this specific issue affect all of us? Honest question with the desire for information. I think I just need this explained very simply, and concisely.

What else can we do?
As has been brought out before, this is a business transaction matter between two private parties, authorities should be (have been) contacted.

The boycott is the side only for those who feel strongly enough on the matter to retract their support of Loopkicks activities.
So help me understand this simply: For what reason are we to retract support of Loopkicks?

[Rudy]

"Worked out" = what I've asked for in this letter. In what way are you not on this?

no i agree with you that things need to be fixed (i.e. money back or dvd)

but i'm still going to the camp

[Ambitrixterous]

Right- answers:

Hmm I don't think my point was being taken so I'll just ask a couple small questions and hopefully we can get on the same page. I've read through the Club540 thread of course but I'm not sure how that relates to what I've said before.


How does this specific issue affect all of us? Honest question with the desire for information. I think I just need this explained very simply, and concisely.


As has been brought out before, this is a business transaction matter between two private parties, authorities should be (have been) contacted.


So help me understand this simply: For what reason are we to retract support of Loopkicks?

1. Loopkicks = the single biggest icon to represent our sport (we're talking recognition here, not necessarily skill.) > people get screwed > Word gets around that their DVD (single largest piece of tricking media) is a scam > tricking loses legitimacy, visibility.

2. See 2nd paragraph in post #10

3. You are not necessarily to retract support of Loopkicks. If you are concerned with this issue then voicing your opinion adds yours to a list of people who would petition to get Chris to resolve this issue. If you're pissed that this has gone on this long (like me) you go that extra mile to retract support.


edit for #1: this is not to say that this single scenario will bring around the end of tricking as we know it.. but I've even been asked by one of my students who found it online why only some people can order it.. and he does not have a club540 account

[Cory]

Skillz, I agree with Dan on this one. This isn't like most other communities. If Chris's business dealings become a bad reflection upon the community as a whole, that affects all of us. Especially those like yourself and Mr. Perez who try so hard to push this community in a positive direction.

I highly doubt Chris realized how big of a deal this had become. We all know he has good intentions and is a good guy, but we all have our flaws. I'm sure this thread will bring the necessary attention to the matter and it will all be sorted out.

I support this thread :good:

[Skilzat85X]

Ahh ok I see I see.

1) I do not in any way see how, even if the Loopkicks DVD was an intentional money grabbing scam, how it would reflect badly towards tricking as a whole. I mean I love Loopkicks as much as the next guy but who cares it's a team full of tricking friends haha big deal. That, and tricking is kicks flips and twists, and the culture and study developed around them, as long as those entities exist, people will trick! And start to trick. I think it's unrealistic for individuals to think "hmm, i would like to learn those flips, twists, and kicks, however I heard someone didn't get his loopkicks dvd after paying for it. I must decline."

Now let's look at this from another perspective, like restaurants. Let's say Loopkicks is McDonalds. This might not be a fair analogy, since LK is cool and McD is crap. But McD is also very popular. So let's pretend one day LK, or McD, became total crap. The most popular fast food chain. Many people hold that opinion. But they'll still go grab themselves a burger from wherever.

I dunno I just don't know what to say haha I believe it's creating a rather unrealistic issue out of the simple fact that Chris was negligent in sending his dang DVD's haha.
This is my perception of course, some may share mine, some may share yours.

2) Oops, forgot to say. Legal action doesn't really mean legal trouble. If authorities contacted Chris D, it would most likely just be first to tell him to honor his end of the deal, or refund their money, or a disciplinary form of legal action would ensue. Contacting a lawyer or such doesn't mean you're out for blood, it just means you'd like to professionally and definitively solve an issue.

3) Yes.

[Taimatsu]

Chris D is IN FACT digging a big hole for himself. But the last thing I want for even him is to get shut down in the crossfire of a lawsuit, or court case. Chrisdee is one of the biggest contributors to the whole of tricking and I want him to continue as such.

I personally prefer this method of action over suing/filing charges, or whatever legal action would be suitable in this situation (I wouldn't personally know).

I don't want to see trickers attacking trickers. Some may think that this whole thread is dan attacking chris, but I disagree. This is dan simply wanting resolve.

I am in agreement.

-taimatsu





.....I agree with taimatsu. hehe.

[Safari]

skilz at raises loads of good points, but Dan still have the best argument. Which consist of Chris D being unproffessional towards new gen trickers and that will make an impact on the "new community" that will build up.

I agree with Dan Perez because of this very statement.

- Safari

"Why Can't everyone just be friends?:smile:"

[Skilzat85X]

Yeno how sometimes you have personal projects, or even school assignments that you procrastinate on? Or you might just never get them done, and think nothing of it?

I think there's a high probability that's simply what happened to Chris here, haha. Since the community is so laid back he has a more lackadaisical attitude about getting stuff done, as one would with their own personal projects.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to realize that he can't just be like "oh I'll get around to it" when other people's affairs are in the mix. So I'm pretty sure he's not thinking of it and not aware of the fact it's an issue, and when he comes and sees all this thread and drama he'll be like "oh gaaaawd, crap" hahah.

Honestly if you want the objective perception Chris was irresponsible in sending out the dang DVD's when he should of. There is no evil Tricking Illuminati ready to destroy the tricking name through a scandal of unshipped DVD packages.

This is an affair of Chris's business practices, not of the tricking community. And if anyone on the outside is naive enough to believe that one man being negligent makes it fair to judge an entire community, their honestly so dense that their opinion of the tricking community honestly hardly matters.

Again, not saying noone should be made aware of this. But it's not the end of the world.

[Skilzat85X]

And, just for the sake of argument, we're so worried because one man didn't send a couple DVD's, and somehow this is supposed to reflect badly on the community, and yet we expect them to think good of the community when they come to the community and see people flaming each other with avatars full of naked men and/or penises, ahaha.

[gabrielb]

Ahh ok I see I see.

1) I do not in any way see how, even if the Loopkicks DVD was an intentional money grabbing scam, how it would reflect badly towards tricking as a whole. I mean I love Loopkicks as much as the next guy but who cares it's a team full of tricking friends haha big deal. That, and tricking is kicks flips and twists, and the culture and study developed around them, as long as those entities exist, people will trick! And start to trick. I think it's unrealistic for individuals to think "hmm, i would like to learn those flips, twists, and kicks, however I heard someone didn't get his loopkicks dvd after paying for it. I must decline."

Now let's look at this from another perspective, like restaurants. Let's say Loopkicks is McDonalds. This might not be a fair analogy, since LK is cool and McD is crap. But McD is also very popular. So let's pretend one day LK, or McD, became total crap. The most popular fast food chain. Many people hold that opinion. But they'll still go grab themselves a burger from wherever.

I dunno I just don't know what to say haha I believe it's creating a rather unrealistic issue out of the simple fact that Chris was negligent in sending his dang DVD's haha.
This is my perception of course, some may share mine, some may share yours.

2) Oops, forgot to say. Legal action doesn't really mean legal trouble. If authorities contacted Chris D, it would most likely just be first to tell him to honor his end of the deal, or refund their money, or a disciplinary form of legal action would ensue. Contacting a lawyer or such doesn't mean you're out for blood, it just means you'd like to professionally and definitively solve an issue.

3) Yes.
ur mcd analogy fails because mcdonalds is a well established and well rooted enterprise....tricking is not.

some peoples main experiences of tricking are loopkicks...and if loopkicks leaves a bad taste for them then tricking as a whole could be planted in their head as shitty.

as well as people trying to push tricking into the mainstream like dan could be hurt. i remember dee talking about nickolodeon was trying to do sumtin this year with them...that had potential upside and downfalls. we're pretty much on the verge of going mainstream it seems.

[Skilzat85X]

Maxx I'm afraid you missed the entire point of the analogy, haha.

[Ambitrixterous]

Ahh ok I see I see.

1) I do not in any way see how, even if the Loopkicks DVD was an intentional money grabbing scam, how it would reflect badly towards tricking as a whole. I mean I love Loopkicks as much as the next guy but who cares it's a team full of tricking friends haha big deal. That, and tricking is kicks flips and twists, and the culture and study developed around them, as long as those entities exist, people will trick! And start to trick. I think it's unrealistic for individuals to think "hmm, i would like to learn those flips, twists, and kicks, however I heard someone didn't get his loopkicks dvd after paying for it. I must decline."

Now let's look at this from another perspective, like restaurants. Let's say Loopkicks is McDonalds. This might not be a fair analogy, since LK is cool and McD is crap. But McD is also very popular. So let's pretend one day LK, or McD, became total crap. The most popular fast food chain. Many people hold that opinion. But they'll still go grab themselves a burger from wherever.

I dunno I just don't know what to say haha I believe it's creating a rather unrealistic issue out of the simple fact that Chris was negligent in sending his dang DVD's haha.
This is my perception of course, some may share mine, some may share yours.

2) Oops, forgot to say. Legal action doesn't really mean legal trouble. If authorities contacted Chris D, it would most likely just be first to tell him to honor his end of the deal, or refund their money, or a disciplinary form of legal action would ensue. Contacting a lawyer or such doesn't mean you're out for blood, it just means you'd like to professionally and definitively solve an issue.

3) Yes.

I completely agree that it won't stop people from tricking, where I was going with that is that it makes the sport look bad for people who get their first impression from that (like if aliens landed here and the first thing we gave them to demonstrate our culinary skill was Mcdonalds.) But yeah it's possible that it goes nowhere and the only people who lose out are the kids who paid for the DVD.. in which case I want to say at least I tried for their sake. :sad:

[gabrielb]

apparently i did

[Taimatsu]

And, just for the sake of argument, we're so worried because one man didn't send a couple DVD's, and somehow this is supposed to reflect badly on the community, and yet we expect them to think good of the community when they come to the community and see people flaming each other with avatars full of naked men and/or penises, ahaha.

You dare to call me out like that, you bastard?!



WHAT THE NIGG!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Skilzat85X]

Ahahaha. Not I'm not hating, but you have to agree I have a point. I mean, forget the whole avatars thing for a second screw that, the content of these message board, while there is much good), surely isn't going to be attracting many new people into discussions by any means.


Here's a question that I should have asked from the get go:
If Chris D saw this thread, thought "oh crap", promptly sent out the DVDs to the receiving parties, and posted a full apology, what would we do after that?

[Taimatsu]

Ahahaha. Not I'm not hating, but you have to agree I have a point. I mean, forget the whole avatars thing for a second screw that, the content of these message board, while there is much good), surely isn't going to be attracting many new people into discussions by any means.


Here's a question that I should have asked from the get go:
If Chris D saw this thread, thought "oh crap", promptly sent out the DVDs to the receiving parties, and posted a full apology, what would we do after that?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'd say we'd have done our part and chris can very well keep his sterling reputation. Are you somehow implying that something wouldn't return to normal after this?

[EmpRitz]

Ahahaha. Not I'm not hating, but you have to agree I have a point. I mean, forget the whole avatars thing for a second screw that, the content of these message board, while there is much good), surely isn't going to be attracting many new people into discussions by any means.


Here's a question that I should have asked from the get go:
If Chris D saw this thread, thought "oh crap", promptly sent out the DVDs to the receiving parties, and posted a full apology, what would we do after that?

Go trick?

[Jervin]

-signed- Jervin Densing

Although I did end up getting my copy of the DVD, it actually took some effort to make sure it would arrive, I knew that it would take a while for my copy to arrive, but I believe I waited a fair amount of time (a month), until I decided to contact Chris D, multiple times in fact (email, youtube, TT), one instance that I found especially frustrating was when I saw that Chris was online here on the forums, and I decided to send him a private message asking about my order, it totally ended up getting ignored by him and it wasn't until I decided to message Tong-Len did I get a reply, and even then, Chris D himself didn't really reply to me personally, Tong Len pretty much just assured me that he will try and contact Chris, and after waiting a couple of days, I decided to send another email to Tong-Len to check up on things, which then got ignored =(
After that I decided to make a thread on bilang, which is the only time Chris D answered, in which apologized and assured me that he will get around to it, I of course eventually got my DVD, but for someone who is running a business I expected a bit more professionalism, in which I don’t have to scurry around and try to figure out if I got scammed or not, which comes off as shady. Sadly, after that it made it hard for me to trust Loopkicks in terms of business dealings. Now, I have never met Chris D, and I’m not gonna make assumptions here on what he’s like, but I would definitely want to see more professionalism and better customer service when it comes to buying loopkicks products.

Btw Pete (petebull) if you see this, I am still very interested in buying loopkicks t-shirts, it’s just I’m a little low on money, and I have other things that need to get taken care of =)

[Skilzat85X]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'd say we'd have done our part and chris can very well keep his sterling reputation. Are you somehow implying that something wouldn't return to normal after this?

Nope, I much agree with your resolution.

It just seems that such a huuuge issue has been made out of this that people are trying to make an example of Chris and LK. Think about it, you just said that if the aforementioned simple steps happened, everything would be back to normal?

So the difference between normal and not normal, the difference between people spending hundreds of dollars to attend a camp full of trickers, instructors, and perhaps have life changing events or and not, is dependent on one man sending out a few DVD's that he neglected to do so before? I'm just not really seeing the scales balanced here. I guess that's what I'm getting at.

[Ambitrixterous]

Yeno how sometimes you have personal projects, or even school assignments that you procrastinate on? Or you might just never get them done, and think nothing of it?

I think there's a high probability that's simply what happened to Chris here, haha. Since the community is so laid back he has a more lackadaisical attitude about getting stuff done, as one would with their own personal projects.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to realize that he can't just be like "oh I'll get around to it" when other people's affairs are in the mix. So I'm pretty sure he's not thinking of it and not aware of the fact it's an issue, and when he comes and sees all this thread and drama he'll be like "oh gaaaawd, crap" hahah.

Honestly if you want the objective perception Chris was irresponsible in sending out the dang DVD's when he should of. There is no evil Tricking Illuminati ready to destroy the tricking name through a scandal of unshipped DVD packages.

This is an affair of Chris's business practices, not of the tricking community. And if anyone on the outside is naive enough to believe that one man being negligent makes it fair to judge an entire community, their honestly so dense that their opinion of the tricking community honestly hardly matters.

Again, not saying noone should be made aware of this. But it's not the end of the world.

Nobody said there was a conspiracy behind any of this, we're only calling attention to the matter as a whole (I even edited in one of my posts that it's not the end of the tricking world.) Again, from an outsider's perspective it's not always simply one man, it's "loop kicks," the sport that combines flips twists and kicks. And how many months can you delay a homework assignment before the semester ends?

And, just for the sake of argument, we're so worried because one man didn't send a couple DVD's, and somehow this is supposed to reflect badly on the community, and yet we expect them to think good of the community when they come to the community and see people flaming each other with avatars full of naked men and/or penises, ahaha.

Ahahaha. Not I'm not hating, but you have to agree I have a point. I mean, forget the whole avatars thing for a second screw that, the content of these message board, while there is much good), surely isn't going to be attracting many new people into discussions by any means.


Here's a question that I should have asked from the get go:
If Chris D saw this thread, thought "oh crap", promptly sent out the DVDs to the receiving parties, and posted a full apology, what would we do after that?

These things I am also well aware of and I have two answers for you:

1. TT is the largest online tricking community, but constitutes only a fraction of the greater tricking population worldwide

2. A large amount of users on this forum stay on the tricking related boards, and do not participate in the craziness that exists elsewhere. Also, if you remember I raised the issue of the word "nigger" being used in a thread title directly in the tricking section for exactly this reason

If he did that we would thank him for his cooperation and pronounce our support of this and other Loopkicks projects and show our love for his contribution to the tricking community through his understanding of the people on this message board.

[Skilzat85X]

My other point is this doesn't reflect badly on the tricking community, this reflects badly on Chris Dee's and Loopkicks business practices. They haven't branded tricking and noone ever will, of course.

EDIT: Ok, I think I see your point about the whole thinking tricking is "loop kicks" things to an outsider. I think that's one of but a million misconceptions based on ignorance someone could have though. It's an understandable concern, but I still believe that even if this was a large issue, it wouldn't reflect badly on the tricking community. I could be wrong, I could be right. Hopefully we'll never have to find out anyways.

[Safari]

My other point is this doesn't reflect badly on the tricking community, this reflects badly on Chris Dee's and Loopkicks business practices. They haven't branded tricking and noone ever will, of course.

They're pretty close in doing it.. unknown people wouldn't call tricking, "tricking". They would Call it loopkicks or in Norway "Nan".

"Do you train NaN?" is a ver known question to us trickers in Bergen.. They KINDA branded it, because they promote it more than anyone in Bergen. Loopkicks promote tricking more than any team, it might be branded because of that.. ooh weeeell. I love tricking that's all that matters tbh.

[petebull]

oh fuck

really not sure why no one asked me about this

[petebull]

you think thats bad, try getting a t-shirt from me. we really suck at this money stuff. but for real, if i knew it was this bad, i would have helped get them out. ima read through this thead some more and comment shortly.

EDIT: i think it points out we're not a business and it obviously hasn't been our priority. ive fucked up so many orders its insane. its not that its so hard, its really not my focus, and it makes me think i gotta take down the community clothing page, or at least the buttons.

i cant defend chris but i can certainly apologize for my negligence in regards to both shirt and dvd sales. its not a scam, we dont want money that isnt earned.

obviously this is very disappointing to hear on such a massive scale and i'd love to take your questions and dissatisfactions

prulonmiller@gmail.com

[petebull]

also i believe the dvd money is collected through paypal, and you can ask for not a refund, but a chargeback. where all of your money is returned because of non-delivery. i have had this happen at least 2ce.

who wants a 2006 tricking dvd anyways

SEAN S!!!! its coming!!!

[Kris]

I just read through the club540.com thread and I just wondered how those 2 guys can be thankful to LK that they got their DVD after that long time?! Are they anyone special to not meet any customer service qualities or did I miss something? I would still complain and If I were Loopkicks I would send free Shirts and other stuff. I myself have an online business running. Im selling books. If Im selling that extraordinary special book for some extra money and that takes about 1 month I wouldnt get a "OH THANK YOU !!!" after that...

Also I agree with Skilzat completly

[petebull]

obviously this is very disappointing to hear on such a massive scale...

it was 7 people on club540 :eh:

[Iikkap]

you think thats bad, try getting a t-shirt from me. we really suck at this money stuff.


Wow, I wasn't actually aware that the t-shirts were still being sold, so after noticing on this topic that they are I figured I might get one.

Your advertising on this post, however, was good enough, that I'll skip.

I respect loopkicks beyond any other tricking team, but the way you've dealt with this is very, VERY unprofessional. If indeed Chris D is too busy to send out a couple of DVDs then he should've let other LK guys into the DVD management business instead of trying to handle it himself and failing.

[D.A.]

*signed*
Devon Ingraham-Adie.

I think the tricking community has more power than some legal men in this matter, I also think this is an appropriate action for Mr. Perez to take. I'm glad to know someone's looking out for the newcomers to the community. I actually know a lot of businesses that would refund the money and send the product free if they messed up an order this badly (had it happen with a $20.00 t-shirt).

also Skilzat, aren't lawyers expensive? I was under the impression it would cost them dollas 'n' cents to have legal action taken (as well as leaving a bad taste in people's mouths).

[sebben]

well, I got a very serious brekfast read here.
Its hard not to take sides here. But from the contact I have had with chris, he is a hard working and devoted person. So I actually found it hard to belive that these "accusations" where true. But upon reading the whole thread, my hopes is simly:

get the dvd's shipped, and basically the matter is resolved.
I can see how crappy it must feel for chris to be called out like this, but I do feel that this is the most mature way to handle it, when taking the pregoing steps of action in to consideration. I also feel, if this gets taken care of in a quick and peacefull manner now, there will be no love lost between any part

-sebben

[GSimp]

I agree with skilzat on this one. While it's very unprofessional, it doesn't hurt the image of tricking, it hurts the image of loopkicks, and tricking lives on.

A short example, I trick every day and talk to other trickers, none of them have even heard of this scam and I didn't learn about it until just now. It will all blow over and tricking will ocntinue just as it has in the past.

[JiayoJames]

I think it's right that the TT community be made aware of this, so that people on here can make a more well informed decision before buying merchandise from Loopkicks. Personally I would not after reading this.

And Dan is not hurting Loopkicks or their reputation by making this thread, Chris did that himself.

If this gets sorted soon, I think everyone would consider it somewhat redeeming... but if it carries on it really could cause serious and longterm damage to Loopkicks' reputation.

Do the right thing or face the consequences.

[andyzzle]

i agree also agree with dan, i mean skilz, you have some pretty good points too, but after all dan is pointing it out exactly. loopkicks may not represent tricking in the eyes of everyone, but there are as a matter of fact some people who got into tricking THROUGH some of the loopkicks-videos.
i can say that because i myself got two of my friends into tricking by showing them some of their stuff. now if the LK reputation gets ruined by a mistake like that, that's of course not the end of tricking or anything, no need to get this melodramatic, but it could affect the reputation of tricking as a whole.

and since it's also true that LK sell a lot of stuff somehow "promoting" tricking, i wouldn't want it to havve bad influence on the "image" of tricking.

and after reading all of this, i'm not sure if i'd order anything from LK now. not because i believe that i'm getting ripped of, but more likely because i would feel really pissed and betrayed if AFTER a mistake like that happens (and mistakes happen) nobody would take steps to get things done right.
i have also read the 540 thread about this kids, and after all i've read there i am somehow dissapointed too because Chris D seems not to care at all about his business.

and just to make this clear, i think this matter should get solved as quick as possible, because if it comes to lawsuits and stuff it is not going to help anyone of us, just as Dan said before. someone of chris friends should try to reach him asap etc.

-signed, andy

EDIT: this thread should be a sticky

[Deezy(LoOpk!cks)]

the fact that this situation has already been handled should close this issue. reimbursements were sent out and received before this thread was even posted. im not giving any excuses. i fell way behind on my shipments. i coulda shoulda woulda done this blah blah blah. and the dvd's will still be sent out, along with a note of apology, when i get to it.

[Khaos]

=] i'm glad it has been sorted in a mature manner i hope no1 got too sour over this issue

i was with ckilz on this to a certain extent bu ti do believe this was the best way to get it sorted :)

[Kyle McLean]

the fact that this situation has already been handled should close this thread. reimbursements have been sent out and received. im not giving any excuses. i fell way behind on my shipments. i coulda shoulda woulda done this blah blah blah. the dvd's will still be sent out, along with a note of apology.

perez, is there sum underlying issue here? there is, isnt there?

this used to say chill the fuck out perez until u edited it.

dont get made at dan. as of yesterday the orginal poster had not heard from u in five months. and has been trying to get a hold of u for 3.

this is the only way to get your attention.

dont be mad at perez.

[Deezy(LoOpk!cks)]

this used to say chill the fuck out perez until u edited it.

dont get made at dan. as of yesterday the orginal poster had not heard from u in five months. and has been trying to get a hold of u for 3.

this is the only way to get your attention.

dont be mad at perez.

haha kyle i edited it, because i posted mad, chilled out, and reworded.

[Nathan.P.]

Loopkicks you lazy bastards hahaha

Nah seriously tho this is no ones business other then the ones who didn't receive their dvd.....seems like you and your following really have something against Loopkicks.

Yes this is no good at all that people didn't get their dvd but Chris did handle the problem so case solved inspectordextrious.

[Dave C]

Haha

I'm so shocked! You mean trying to make money off Tricking has (once again) become an issue of controversy, irresponsibility to the community, and general bad feelings?

Amazing.

[Kris]

It is not only an issue between the two sides(loopkicks and the guy who didnt receive it). Transparency is key for a business, because customer then can know when a business acts well or screws up.
I see no point in getting personal with this matter. It is just the fact that the person loopkicks, which is a business, had a massive delay of 5 months in their DVD delivery, along with some other issues described in the club540 thread.
It is great for anyone to read what happened about that transaction(not what most other guys wrote/drama), because this forum is read by many potential customers.

Other companies leave their customers the opportunity to give online feedback or write reviews that is visible for any other customer, too.

[sebben]

But if all ends well, right?

so basically why not thread closed?

[Cory]

the fact that this situation has already been handled should close this issue. reimbursements were sent out and received before this thread was even posted. im not giving any excuses. i fell way behind on my shipments. i coulda shoulda woulda done this blah blah blah. and the dvd's will still be sent out, along with a note of apology, when i get to it.

Yay!

[Cory]

But if all ends well, right?

so basically why not thread closed?

this. otherwise lots of people are going to come on here and start up a flame war not realizing Dee took care of the problem already.

[sebben]

you are a very smart guy cory.. why not be smart at bergen gathering this sumer ;)

[Cory]

I'll try :wink:

[sebben]

bring the rest of roanoke 2

[Fredo]

Well, speaking as one of the customers that didnt get their dvds from loopkicks on the 540 thread I for one would like to say that i agree with both Dan and Skillz. Being a brand new tricker I was obviously influenced by the loopkicks vids on youtube and such and seeing that they had the only dvd on the market i decided to purchase it to see what i could learn from it and enjoy the amazing skills on it. So since loopkicks was the first thing i saw i used them as my main research tool until i saw the club540 and TT websites and educated myself a little more. But Dan is absolutley right when he said that loopkicks is a main influence on us new guys and at first i did feel a little sour about the community as a whole, but only until i started posting on 540 and Dan and others supported our problem and tried to help us resolve it. I even posted a reply on there that thanked Dan and the rest on the tricking community because i've never seen such a strong sense of global responsibility for others whether their new or old so for that i have to give you all props and looking from the outside in i think that this sense of community is whats going to elevate tricking to the next level as a recognized sport. So Thank you Dan for all your support and for putting yourself out there for us newbies :wink:. And with what Skillz says, your right as well, even though I never got my DVD, I do not hold the tricking community responsible or think any less of anyone out there. This was just a situation between customer and vendor and we only sought out the help of other trickers to see if we could handle it with just a little assistance instead of a full blown legal battle. We do not want to slander Loopkicks with any legal battle (not to mention its freakin expensive to do that anyways...lol) by no means, we just want what we paid for, thats it. So if we can resolve it for the ones that were left out in the cold for these past months and for any future customers and new trickers than we did something good for everyone out there. I was able to get reimbursed by Payapl for the dvd, but what i really just wanted was the darn dvd. Chris i have no bad feeling towards you, loopkicks or the community as a whole, all i want is the dvd. It has been labeled as the "bible" of tricking by some i have talked too so congrats on making such a power piece of work. So if you and I can work something out on the side maybe in private so that i can somehow get this from you and for the others as well than all will be solved. Thanks again for everyone involved in this and the 540 thread.

[Skilzat85X]

the fact that this situation has already been handled should close this issue. reimbursements were sent out and received before this thread was even posted. im not giving any excuses. i fell way behind on my shipments. i coulda shoulda woulda done this blah blah blah. and the dvd's will still be sent out, along with a note of apology, when i get to it.
Oh goodie! Back to your lives citizens! :smile:
loopkicks may not represent tricking in the eyes of everyone, but there are as a matter of fact some people who got into tricking THROUGH some of the loopkicks-videos.
This logic fails for two reasons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkitFN42aGI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dde8aMKtImk
Ahaha.

[Cory]

^lol

[alpha7158]

Loopkicks you lazy bastards hahaha

Nah seriously tho this is no ones business other then the ones who didn't receive their dvd.....seems like you and your following really have something against Loopkicks.

Yes this is no good at all that people didn't get their dvd but Chris did handle the problem so case solved inspectordextrious.
I disagree. In business (Which is what loopkicks essentially is) the opinion of the masses matters hugely and reputation is everything.

People are entitled to flame about ipods/phones/DVD's/customer service should they think something is sub par, and it's important to do so. Dan wasn't to know the situation wasn't resolved and was right to enquire about it.

It is good that D has resolved this issue, and it is even better that the people involved have got their money back and will recieve a copy of the DVD for free. D Knows he messed up, the only time this is bad is if nothing is done to fix it. Money back and a free DVD in my opinion is a resolution worthy of forgiveness for, provided that it doesn't happen again.

To some posters in this thread: Please split up big posts into small paragraphs. It gets very hard to read if everything is layed out in one massive block.

[Cory]

I disagree. In business (Which is what loopkicks essentially is) the opinion of the masses matters hugely and reputation is everything.

People are entitled to flame about ipods/phones/DVD's/customer service should they think something is sub par, and it's important to do so. Dan wasn't to know the situation wasn't resolved and was right to enquire about it.

It is good that D has resolved this issue, and it is even better that the people involved have got their money back and will recieve a copy of the DVD for free. D Knows he messed up, the only time this is bad is if nothing is done to fix it. Money back and a free DVD in my opinion is a resolution worthy of forgiveness for, provided that it doesn't happen again.

To some posters in this thread: Please split up big posts into small paragraphs. It gets very hard to read if everything is layed out in one massive block.

The only thing I disagree with is that Loopkicks is a Martial Arts Tricking team. Not a business. If they were a business, this would have never happened because things would have been more organized.

[alpha7158]

The only thing I disagree with is that Loopkicks is a Martial Arts Tricking team. Not a business. If they were a business, this would have never happened because things would have been more organized.
They are selling products and services for money. What part of this is not business like? Even if loopkicks claim they aren't making a profit: Even a charity is a business.

[Inkrepid]

In order to run a successful business, you must have a strong foundation.

Chris, I understand that your a busy person, but you do have a business to run.

I suggest you check out www.Disk.com. They will create DVDs, CDs, packaging, and actually ship it out too. They have good rates. This will make everything automated. Payment comes in, they get notified, they ship it.

Contact Cindy Tonne at cindy@disk.com and see what she can do for you. She's proved to be very helpful and reliable in the past.

[Skilzat85X]

You guys have to understand that even though this is a business transaction doesn't technically mean LK is a business. They could be, I'm not sure about the details. But the fact remains that they're selling product, and should conduct these monetary-product transactions in a professional, business like fashion.

Look guys, the situations been resolved, and there was a mistake made. Nobody's saying it should be overlooked, but there's no point in getting dramatic about it now. A mistake is a chance to learn from something and not repeat it. I leave you all with a song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9zZus_1_ag

[Dave C]

On that note I'm changing this thread title

[Ambitrixterous]

the fact that this situation has already been handled should close this issue. reimbursements were sent out and received before this thread was even posted. im not giving any excuses. i fell way behind on my shipments. i coulda shoulda woulda done this blah blah blah. and the dvd's will still be sent out, along with a note of apology, when i get to it.

Whether the situation was actually handled or not, really there was no way to know until apparently today at 8:20, when you edited your post to share that information. The original poster in club540 said himself yesterday that he had not received so much as an email. This single post of yours was all the return that was needed from the beginning.

But if this is truly resolved, then I agree we can all breathe a sigh of relief that you are still alive and thus planning on taking care of business. You've spent a lot of time & resources creating the legacy that is your team and your names, please continue to make the effort to care for its well being.

[TKD_Andy]

wow, this thread is filled with alot of shit, and completely uneccesary shit at that :bad:

im pretty sure Dee apologised for any mixups with the DVDs when they first came out and said they were gonna do their best.

theres no need to make a public thread about it. Nobody should tell Dee how to run Loopkicks or tell him "according to good business" because thats a crock of crap, he can run it however he likes.

im getting a real feeling that people are waggling their fingers at chris for stuff thats got nothing to do with them, they just want to criticize because theyre not the ones who made the mistakes.

lock and delete please, mods :good:

[Kyle McLean]

haha kyle i edited it, because i posted mad, chilled out, and reworded.

Fair enough. And I'm glad to hear u have taken care of business

[Ambitrixterous]

wow, this thread is filled with alot of shit, and completely uneccesary shit at that :bad:

im pretty sure Dee apologised for any mixups with the DVDs when they first came out and said they were gonna do their best.

theres no need to make a public thread about it. Nobody should tell Dee how to run Loopkicks or tell him "according to good business" because thats a crock of crap, he can run it however he likes.

im getting a real feeling that people are waggling their fingers at chris for stuff thats got nothing to do with them, they just want to criticize because theyre not the ones who made the mistakes.

lock and delete please, mods :good:

Go through and read the thread before posting. Although I agree it is probably time to lock the thread.

[TKD_Andy]

dan why did you just waste your time PMing me.

I remember Dee apologising for lateness/mixups when the DVD first came out.

He had an email address and could be PM'd on TT. You honestly dont expect him to be giving his cell number out etc for things like this. Plus its entirely his decision how contactable he is, whats it to do with you whether or not other people can get hold of him regarding an issue thats also nothing to do with you.

I honestly dont understand why you're saddling up your high horse on this :eh: just let chris sort his own shit out.

[Ambitrixterous]

dan why did you just waste your time PMing me.

I remember Dee apologising for lateness/mixups when the DVD first came out.

He had an email address and could be PM'd on TT. You honestly dont expect him to be giving his cell number out etc for things like this. Plus its entirely his decision how contactable he is, whats it to do with you whether or not other people can get hold of him regarding an issue thats also nothing to do with you.

I honestly dont understand why you're saddling up your high horse on this :eh: just let chris sort his own shit out.

Once more, just so it doesn't seem like you came up with these ridiculous notions from this thread which I recommend you read,

-any notes made on the DVD when it first came out do not apply here, because this is in regards to people who tried to pick it up 5 months ago.

-he WAS private messaged on TT, and called on his phone, and emailed, and a number of other things and could not be reached.

-when people cannot contact him in regards to the conduct of business started on his behalf, and then post in a forum asking for HELP, it officially had something to do with me and indeed everyone else.

[TKD_Andy]

-when people cannot contact him in regards to the conduct of business started on his behalf, and then post in a forum asking for HELP, it officially had something to do with me and indeed everyone else.




lmao, dan perez, internet police.

why didnt you just let the people who actually had a gripe with Dee make the thread instead? Or just let them try to contact him by the usual means. If he doesnt reply then thats his issue, not ours.

I dont get why you're trying to rail into chris so much on this

*edit*

stop PMing me, theyre just getting deleted without being read. Like i said in the first one, its a waste of your time.

[Ambitrixterous]

lmao, dan perez, internet police.

why didnt you just let the people who actually had a gripe with Dee make the thread instead? Or just let them try to contact him by the usual means. If he doesnt reply then thats his issue, not ours.

I dont get why you're trying to rail into chris so much on this

You don't get it, because you didn't read it. THESE PEOPLE DID TRY TO CONTACT HIM BY THE USUAL MEANS. THEN THEY ASKED FOR HELP. IN THIS THREAD ALONE YOU CAN FIND SEVERAL OTHERS WHO HAVE PLEDGED THEIR SUPPORT IN HELPING THIS CAUSE WHICH TO MY KNOWLEDGE HAS NOW BEEN RESOLVED OUTSIDE OF YOUR THREE POSTS. It's all in the thread.

edit: then stop being a hypocrite.

[Cory]

Andy...he's right.

[Taimatsu]

Andy: I'm not your buddy, guy!

Dan: I'm not your guy, fwend!

Andy: I'm not your fwend, BUDDY!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22JIgpBVcF4

[Kalvin]

This happened as well with the Hurricane Loopkicks gathering 07 Dvd, although i did get my DVD when it go to the battles it would simply not work anymore, after emailing him bunches of times, how was my issue handled? I was linked a torrent to download the movie onto my computer....anyone could upload the DVD and send a torrent around, i wanted the movie, a copy of the DVD that worked. Also just read that club540 thing damn.. that one kid has been waiting for over a month :shocked:

[Dave C]

Shut up Andy, you're embarrassing yourself

Nobody should tell Dee how to run Loopkicks or tell him "according to good business" because thats a crock of crap, he can run it however he likes.

Fucking wrong on so many levels.

That's like ordering a DVD from amazon.com, never getting it, and still getting charged and saying, "Whatever, that's fine, Amazon can run it's business however it wants."

Morans.

[jan]

Yeahhh, it doesn't matter at all who you are or what you're selling. If you're doing business, you're doing business. And when you're dealing with other people (which is what business is all about), you're supposed to do everything you can to keep the customers satisfied.

Being completely objective in this matter: Running Loopkicks is one thing. Making business out of it is a completely different thing. You can't promise people a product for money, and then not give them that product after they've paid for it. That's just scamming.