when to take protein?

[benh922]

I know you should take protein after a workout but I've heard theres other times you could take it like when you wake up. I've tried this a few times and it actually wakes me up really good and feel real good.

Also should I take protein after running?

[Swartz]

it actually wakes me up really good and feel real good.
I guarantee protein by itself is not the cause of that. Protein is not some magic potion so stop treating it as such.

[benh922]

I guarantee protein by itself is not the cause of that. Protein is not some magic potion so stop treating it as such.

lies

[benh922]

anyways, so i should just stick to protein after weights?

[Jackamaideshwang]

You can drink it whenever you want, it's just liquid food, but after workouts seems to be beneficial.

[Tatsumaru]

:music:Bring me a magic potion; it will heal my aching wounds
A taste so bitter that it makes my bleeding soul feel so good
It will make us sing and dance in our endless feast
Or it might even unleash the beast in me!:music:

[Birch]

I know a guy who does shift work and has breakfast at 3am. Then he has a protein shake to muck with his metabolism so he doesn't get too hungry until he finishes work at like 12

[cain2kill]

@ wake up .... after workout .... before going to sleep.. is that incorrect? -.-

[Rahf]

I know a guy who does shift work and has breakfast at 3am. Then he has a protein shake to muck with his metabolism so he doesn't get too hungry until he finishes work at like 12

It doesn't muck with his metabolism. He's just used to that eating pattern.

Take protein before or after a workout and then use it as a meal complement if you don't get enough protein during the day.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Yeah, protein and fats slow gastric emptying, and enhance that "full" feeling. I load up on protein and fats before a shift and I don't get hungry. It may not be the best if you're going for quantity though, you can eat a lot more carbohydrates.

[Anima]

Why should you have protein pre workout? Surely it should be carbs pre workout, then protein post work out?

[Rahf]

Why should you have protein pre workout? Surely it should be carbs pre workout, then protein post work out?

No, turn that around and you'll get it right.

[Munks]

Recommended daily allowance is 0.8g/kg of body mass so if you are 100kg you need about 80g.... with training your body can only absorb about double this so theres no point going over 160g really. Also you need plenty of energy (e.g. carbs) to keep the digestion of the protein high, otherwise your just eating protein for nothing.

Basically, dont go over board with protein coz you don't need it....

As for timing... eat it all the time... doesn't matter when, long as its not 1-3 hours before exercise (Depending of personal reactions to eating before exercise) and 30 mins after. (Theres also a 30-90min gap after exercise where the body will take up carbs and maybe proteins more than usual)

[Jackamaideshwang]

Exercise causes more glucose transporters in the cells to activate, allowing more glucose to enter the cell. However if the exercise has caused damage to the muscle (most repetitive intense activities) then the muscle has minimal ability to synthesise glycogen (the whole reason you have carbs after a workout, to replenish stores). So really, carbs after a heavy workout won't do too much for recovery, unless after that timeframe, the real muscle damage occurs due to remodelling of the muscle itself, causing reduced glycogen synthesis, possibly proving the "muscle damage" theory of hypertrophy wrong. Blah blah blah blah rock ten blah blah blah
Also carbs wont waste your protein, it merely takes it throught the GI tract faster

[Munks]

Exercise causes more glucose transporters in the cells to activate, allowing more glucose to enter the cell. However if the exercise has caused damage to the muscle (most repetitive intense activities) then the muscle has minimal ability to synthesise glycogen (the whole reason you have carbs after a workout, to replenish stores). So really, carbs after a heavy workout won't do too much for recovery, unless after that timeframe, the real muscle damage occurs due to remodelling of the muscle itself, causing reduced glycogen synthesis, possibly proving the "muscle damage" theory of hypertrophy wrong. Blah blah blah blah rock ten blah blah blah
Also carbs wont waste your protein, it merely takes it throught the GI tract faster

Replenishing stores is what I was referring to... if you replenish them then that will obviously help towards recovery.

I said u need carbs for protein digestion so if you dont have enough energy, preferable from carbs you'll waste the protein... thats why the body can only really process about double the RDA of protein... guessing like a max of 200g on average.

[compleks]

This thread made me cringe several times.

[Rahf]

Rock_Ten: it's not like you need fast carbs after resistance training anyway, since it doesn't spend that much energy. A decent meal is more than enough.

Getting 2g of protein per kg bodyweight is fine. Granted that alot of it will oxidize into glucose, but it is a decent number to still provide great variation in your everyday meals.

Like some internet gurus, you are overcomplicating things.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Which parts are cringeworthy? I'm always keen to get set straight.
The post before was probably unneccesary, I'd just thought I'd see what everyone else thought of it - as said above, always good to get put on the right track.

[Caveman]

I was going to write a big detailed response and then realised there's no point.

1) Eat protein whenever you want
2) You don't need plenty of carbs to make protein digest

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

This thread made me cringe several times.:good:

I was going to write a big detailed response and then realised there's no point.

1) Eat protein whenever you want
2) You don't need plenty of carbs to make protein digest:good:




Benh, I think you should use protein suppository's every hour even when you're in public.

[JordanW]

This thread made me cringe several times.

I agree.

[Swartz]

I don't need energy to trick.

[Caveman]

Energy to digest is required, it does not necessarily need to have come from carbohydrates.

If carbohydrates were required, everyone who ever went on a low carb diet would have epically failed at any kind of muscle development or maintenance.

[Munks]

The only source of energy used in the body is either glucose or triglycerides. And as carbs are all broken down into glucose as they are all sugars... and all triglycerides are from fats... its highly unlikely that your gonna get all your energy from eating fats.

Yeah low-carb diets wont lose muscle initially, but only work in the short run as you have to burn ur fats and once thats gone, ur gonna lose muscle to the point of the amount of carbs ur eating can support... but if you are talking about maximizing your protein intake, you need lots of carbs.

So unless you want to consume a shit load of fats to get the energy to digest your protein... i would recommend carbs.

[Rahf]

The only source of energy used in the body is either glucose or triglycerides. And as carbs are all broken down into glucose as they are all sugars... and all triglycerides are from fats... its highly unlikely that your gonna get all your energy from eating fats.

Yeah low-carb diets wont lose muscle initially, but only work in the short run as you have to burn ur fats and once thats gone, ur gonna lose muscle to the point of the amount of carbs ur eating can support... but if you are talking about maximizing your protein intake, you need lots of carbs.

So unless you want to consume a shit load of fats to get the energy to digest your protein... i would recommend carbs.

Umm, you still supply the body with ample amounts of dietary fat, since you're consuming mainly various fats and protein. You do NOT need carbs for any magical digestive or logistic effect on protein, wherever did that come from?

Protein and fat are essential, carbohydrates are not. Though for anaerobic performance, glucose is superior to ketones.

[Munks]

I didnt say you dont need fat... you do or ull die haha.

No saying its magical either... I'm just saying... people generally believe... more protein = bigger gains... where as the actual fact is that you can only digest and utilise about twice the RDA or something.. cant quite remember the exact figure but its far far less than what body builders or sporting people generally think... and if you want to be able to digest all that protein (twice RDA) and utilise it.. you need enough energy, and the best place to get that energy is carbs.

Thats why protein shakes and such products are ridiculously necessary.

[shengoikee]

munks, i'm not sure i believe everything you've said in this thread haha. sorry.

[Rahf]

I didnt say you dont need fat... you do or ull die haha.

No saying its magical either... I'm just saying... people generally believe... more protein = bigger gains... where as the actual fact is that you can only digest and utilise about twice the RDA or something.. cant quite remember the exact figure but its far far less than what body builders or sporting people generally think... and if you want to be able to digest all that protein (twice RDA) and utilise it.. you need enough energy, and the best place to get that energy is carbs.

Thats why protein shakes and such products are ridiculously necessary.

You don't need energy from glucose to digest in the sense that you're putting forth. If the body needs glucose that badly, it'll oxidize protein in that case. It won't use every gram of 2g/kg anyway, some of it will still oxidize.

I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

[Munks]

munks, i'm not sure i believe everything you've said in this thread haha. sorry.

Haha don't worry if someone proves me wrong I'll more than happily accept it... I'm just explaining what I've learned through my Sport Science Degree.

You don't need energy from glucose to digest in the sense that you're putting forth. If the body needs glucose that badly, it'll oxidize protein in that case. It won't use every gram of 2g/kg anyway, some of it will still oxidize.

I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

Im not sayin you NEED the energy from carbs to digest the protein... i said its the best place to get it instead of sacrificing it from somewhere else.

[Lobo]

You dont need carbs to digest protein.

[shengoikee]

@munks

the part where you mention people overestimate their protein requirements i can fully agree with :good: 1.0-1.2g/kg of ideal bodyweight is a very common recommendation. or 0.17g/kg of nitrogen (then convert to protein x6.25).

you'd be looking at no more than 1.5-2.0g per kg for athletes undergoing resistance training


the part about protein metabolism and low carb diets was the part i was dubious about. you don't require carbohydrate to metabolise protein and you'd only start losing a significant amount of muscle once you reached an incredibly low bodyfat (that's if you're using a sensible deficit).

yes, low carb diets can be a temporary solution to some but they do work - as many can testify to.

what was your thinking anyway? (i'm not entirely sure what's being discussed tbh haha)



oh and we should all learn this:

(simplified version)

http://www.wikidoc.org/images/5/50/Metabolism_790px_partly_labeled.png

[Munks]

Ahhk......

I didnt mean like if you dont have carbs thats it you cant digest protein....

Course I know you can use energy from fats or even protein to digest progtein... i.e. with low car diets yeah they will work untill you have depleted your glycogen and fat stores untill you have to break down your own muscles... thats why they are only short term...

I was just making the point that if you eat enough carbs you wont have to use your fat/protein stores for the energy requirement.

[shengoikee]

Ahhk......

I didnt mean like if you dont have carbs thats it you cant digest protein....

Course I know you can use energy from fats or even protein to digest progtein... i.e. with low car diets yeah they will work untill you have depleted your glycogen and fat stores untill you have to break down your own muscles... thats why they are only short term...

I was just making the point that if you eat enough carbs you wont have to use your fat/protein stores for the energy requirement.

well the whole purpose is to deplete your glycogen stores :tongue: (unless you mean doing it to the point where you lose almost all fat, which is unlikely)

i did go through a sceptical phase with low carb diets, as people like graham/kitosho will remember, but they have a number of benefits. increased insulin sensitivity, rapid loss of stored fat, better complexion, ease of use, etc etc

you won't lose a great deal of muscle mass (possibly less than with a typical reducing diet). you will, however, lose strength whilst cutting carbs. that's why it's usually a temporary measure.

bodybuilders (people who are the most anal about maintaining their lean body mass) use low carb diets all the time.

[Munks]

Ahh haha sorry i wasnt actually refering to low car diets... i just mean general training and diet for performance...

I.e. Eating lots of protein + training = need a fair amount of carbs

[Rahf]

well the whole purpose is to deplete your glycogen stores :tongue: (unless you mean doing it to the point where you lose almost all fat, which is unlikely)

i did go through a sceptical phase with low carb diets, as people like graham/kitosho will remember, but they have a number of benefits. increased insulin sensitivity, rapid loss of stored fat, better complexion, ease of use, etc etc

you won't lose a great deal of muscle mass (possibly less than with a typical reducing diet). you will, however, lose strength whilst cutting carbs. that's why it's usually a temporary measure.

bodybuilders (people who are the most anal about maintaining their lean body mass) use low carb diets all the time.

I thought bodybuilders did carb cycling and not necessarily low carb diets. Shows how well informed I am about BB though.

[shengoikee]

Ahh haha sorry i wasnt actually refering to low car diets... i just mean general training and diet for performance...

I.e. Eating lots of protein + training = need a fair amount of carbs

i should of read everything haha :tongue:

i'm sure you know what you're talking about! i just know there are a lot of low carb skeptics. yeah i was talking about dieting.

[shengoikee]

I thought bodybuilders did carb cycling and not necessarily low carb diets. Shows how well informed I am about BB though.

i don't know much about the specifics of bodybuilding but point is, they don't eat carbs sometimes haha

they do drugs all the time though

[Lobo]

@munks

the part where you mention people overestimate their protein requirements i can fully agree with :good: 1.0-1.2g/kg of ideal bodyweight is a very common recommendation. or 0.17g/kg of nitrogen (then convert to protein x6.25).

you'd be looking at no more than 1.5-2.0g per kg for athletes undergoing resistance training


the part about protein metabolism and low carb diets was the part i was dubious about. you don't require carbohydrate to metabolise protein and you'd only start losing a significant amount of muscle once you reached an incredibly low bodyfat (that's if you're using a sensible deficit).

yes, low carb diets can be a temporary solution to some but they do work - as many can testify to.

what was your thinking anyway? (i'm not entirely sure what's being discussed tbh haha)



oh and we should all learn this:

(simplified version)

http://www.wikidoc.org/images/5/50/Metabolism_790px_partly_labeled.png

http://www.trickstutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1258561#post1258561

Also, shut up munks, you don't lose muscle just from cutting out carbohydrates from your diet as long as you're in a positive caloric balance.

[Lobo]

i did go through a sceptical phase with low carb diets, as people like graham/kitosho will remember
Yes, what a fucking idiot you were/possibly still are. "just eat a lot of carbs, guys lol" - shengoikee advice to literally any sort of diet based question thread

[Lobo]

Anti-carb paleofags like rock_ten are also idiots, ofc.

[Lobo]

Also, Rahf, perhaps you haven't heard of this happening in Sweden, but bodybuilders are varying individuals with different approaches to diet and training rather than all following a single unifying approach. Some do carb cycling, some just go low carb, some just stuff their faces with clenbuterol and DNP and eat whatever they want.

[Caveman]

Anti-carb paleofags like rock_ten are also idiots, ofc.

you don't lose muscle just from cutting out carbohydrates from your diet as long as you're in a positive caloric balance.

These.

i.e. with low car diets yeah they will work untill you have depleted your glycogen and fat stores untill you have to break down your own muscles... thats why they are only short term...

Why would anyone be still be eating in a negative calorie balance if they had no glycogen or fat?

[Rahf]

Also, Rahf, perhaps you haven't heard of this happening in Sweden, but bodybuilders are varying individuals with different approaches to diet and training rather than all following a single unifying approach. Some do carb cycling, some just go low carb, some just stuff their faces with clenbuterol and DNP and eat whatever they want.

Oh sure, but I seem to see trends come and go there. Never noticed low-carb except just around contest time. Have seen carb cycling. But as I said, my overview of general dieting for bodybuilders is vague.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Fish, rice cakes, fish, rice cakes, fish, rice cakes etc.

[Vincent_Lee]

This thread is full of testosterone thats fer sure !

[shengoikee]

Yes, what a fucking idiot you were/possibly still are. "just eat a lot of carbs, guys lol" - shengoikee advice to literally any sort of diet based question thread

possibly, graham. possibly.

(but less of an idiot than most here)

[JordanW]

I don't have much to offer but I just say what I've noticed, too many people learn from the internet rather than experience. They think that what some guy wrote in an article (which ends up being biased anyway to sell some sort of supplement) is 95% factual and the end all. They'll even get into argument with people who have been doing it for years and big and strong thinking they know better.

Also, just because you know something for a fact, it doesn't mean there aren't exceptions or something along the same lines you're currently unaware of. So unless you don't know everything don't expect it to be written in stone and be open more. It took me a while to realise that I should experiment with my own body to see what works best for me as opposed to some god-like diet and routine which worked for someone else.

But yeah sure it's good to get some basic knowledge and get some starting ground. The internet is great.

[Munks]

http://www.trickstutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1258561#post1258561

Also, shut up munks, you don't lose muscle just from cutting out carbohydrates from your diet as long as you're in a positive caloric balance.

Er... i did not say that. I actually said the opposite.

These.



Why would anyone be still be eating in a negative calorie balance if they had no glycogen or fat?

I didn't say they would... i just made the point that i know you dont NEED carbs to digest protein to the people that thought i did.

im not really discussing low carb diets anyway... just general diet for performance.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

This thread is full of testosterone thats fer sure !
Full of protein, 3.2g/post in fact.

[compleks]

I have no idea what is being argued anymore.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Obviously there aren't exact diets that are optimal for everyone's performance, there is shitloads of variations, mainly based on previous diets and desirable adaptations/genetic disposition to excel with certain diets. People can excell with carb loading, or people can excel with minimal carbs, it just varies how the body adapts to the diet to use the fuels effectively. If you have predominantly carbs, your body will rely more on carbs, the same goes for fats and protein, its called the mass action effect.
The body adapts to low carb diets by sparing glycogen (more efficient use) during intense exercise, and kicks up fat metabolism to make up the rest. Triglicerides can also be used to synthesise glycogen/glucose. Fat requires more oxygen though, so there is a balance you need, between the anaerobic nature of the sport and the amount of carbs/fat in your diet.
So pretty much, if you stick to your regular diet, you'll be fine, it's when people switch to other diets that their performance suffers for a while.

[Lobo]

Oh sure, but I seem to see trends come and go there. Never noticed low-carb except just around contest time. Have seen carb cycling. But as I said, my overview of general dieting for bodybuilders is vague.
Contest time is like the biggest part of bodybuilding though, outside of then they just eat whatever the fuck they like usually.

[Lobo]

Er... i did not say that. I actually said the opposite.



I didn't say they would... i just made the point that i know you dont NEED carbs to digest protein to the people that thought i did.

im not really discussing low carb diets anyway... just general diet for performance.
What the fuck do you call this then?

Yeah low-carb diets wont lose muscle initially, but only work in the short run as you have to burn ur fats and once thats gone, ur gonna lose muscle to the point of the amount of carbs ur eating can support...

[Ashtar]

It doesn't look like Munks is supporting the low-carb diet there, just saying that you won't suffer initially, which is sorta true. Glycogen doesn't suddenly exhaust itself in a day (unless you're uber) so you can probably survive brief low-carb periods (though you might not feel energetic).

M seems to acknowledge that a lack of carbs can lead to muscle breakdown. My guess is as glycogen levels approach 0% that protein catabolization is increased. These low-carb eaters tend to eat more protein which in theory restores that which gets eaten, but that ends up being a lot more work to turn it into energy.

[Jackamaideshwang]

The thing is, whilst eating a low carbohydrate diet, or almost no carbohydrates, your muscle glycogen levels don't approach 0, or ever get to 0, it's impossible. Proteins and fats, from your own stores are used to synthesise glucose if you aren't eating any food at all, which may acccount for your beleif that muscle protein breakdown occurs faster in low carb diets. If you eat protein and fat, the dietary forms will be used preferentially for the body's functions, meaning no extra loss of muscle. And breif low carb periods will detriment performance, as no major adaptations occur, just unfamiliar/stress conditions. A low carb diet over a long period of time will negate initial detriments to performance.

[Colonel]

When to take protein?


When your able to maintain a nice healthy diet! :D

[Ashtar]

Jack, please explain how fat becomes glucose. I am aware that the glycerin can be used as a similar type of fuel to glucose, but I am not sure it can actually replenish glycogen stores.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Shengiokee posted a flow chart, find "Fats", which splits up into fatty acids and glycerol. The glycerol is then converted to glycerol 3 phosphate, then follow it all the way to gylcogen!

[Munks]

What the fuck do you call this then?

sorry yeah, my bad...when i referred to that i actually mean energy intake not just carbs....

the point i was trying to get across is that the energy you use to digest protein will be best coming from carbs for performance, i.e. replenish glucose stores to be able to digest the protein and still have a good amount stored so your not tired afterwards.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Carbs are not some super performance giver, and they don't give super performance digestive powers either. Energy used is energy used Munks, I'm not sure why you think using dietary carbohydrates for digestion will make it any more beneficial for performance, assuming you can preferentially use carbohydrates for digestion, which is a bit off seeing as the majority of the energy in a resting state comes from fats.

[Munks]

Im not trying to say this is the BEST way... ive just learnt this through my degree, and just sharing what my tutors have said. (Nutrition is not my strong point so i really do apologies is this is complete bull... but I am trying to learn! haha)

Im not saying its more beneficial, just carbs will give you a high quantity of low GI carbs so surely youll have more energy over a longer period of time... therefore you'll have a longer endurance.

E.g. spag bol the night before a day of training gives you a good dose of protein and carb stores so the next day you'll have enough energy for training after digestion.

Where would you recommend gettin the energy from?

[Lobo]

It doesn't look like Munks is supporting the low-carb diet there, just saying that you won't suffer initially, which is sorta true. Glycogen doesn't suddenly exhaust itself in a day (unless you're uber) so you can probably survive brief low-carb periods (though you might not feel energetic).

M seems to acknowledge that a lack of carbs can lead to muscle breakdown. My guess is as glycogen levels approach 0% that protein catabolization is increased. These low-carb eaters tend to eat more protein which in theory restores that which gets eaten, but that ends up being a lot more work to turn it into energy.
Read the thread properly before commenting again, you paedophile.

[Lobo]

How can you even have a degree, Munks. Ha ha. Ridiculous.

[Birch]

I have qualifications too. The only reason I don't argue about things like this is becaue many people on here seem to be much more 'textbook' smart. I've never spent my time trying to retain this kind of information when instead I am training people or myself in an efficient way. I've never met anyone who actually wants to know how they lose weight on a molecular level. They just want some reuslts.

A quote that seems appropriate:

"There are two types of people who talk about track. People who talk about it and never go and guys who just got back."

Dave Pinchler

[benh922]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

Because you made this thread.

[Churoflip]

Fuck yall we dont need protein
just eat shit and youll be muss enough

[compleks]

I have a PhD in Internet arguments.

[Starter Kit]

It's a god-damned macro nutrient for fucks sake, just eat it.

[Vincent_Lee]

Eat protein whenever the hell works for you!

[Munks]

How can you even have a degree, Munks. Ha ha. Ridiculous.

:good:

[Ashtar]

Shengiokee posted a flow chart, find "Fats", which splits up into fatty acids and glycerol. The glycerol is then converted to glycerol 3 phosphate, then follow it all the way to gylcogen!Yeah I saw the chart (FU Lobo) but I'm having some trouble following it. I have a tendency to overlook stuff staring me at the face so could someone draw it out with a red line or something?
http://www.wikidoc.org/images/5/50/Metabolism_790px_partly_labeled.png

I see Fatty Acid at the bottom. It split off from Fats, which also splits off to GAD-3P so I take it that must be glycerol? Oh wait, I just found it, Fructose-6P, Glucose-6P, Glucose 1-P, Glucose. Yeah forget the red line.

The thing I am wondering, are all these lines drawn supposed to be 2-way streets? Or aren't some of them 1-way or something? That's what I'm wondering. The body might have a tendency to more easily convert one thing into another than to bring it back.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Yep, that one is a two way street, from glycogen to acetyl CoA i'm pretty sure is two way, with the direction depending on levels of the substrates etc, and GAD-3P just pops in there as an intermediary in the whole system, so once it's in there it's good to go wherever pretty much. It's probably not as simple as that, but for general understanding it is.

[Ashtar]

Somewhere along the line I recall reading something like fat can't become sugar so someone out there maybe on t-nation confused me!

[Jackamaideshwang]

Indeed, apparantly the whole glycerol-glucose thing is important in diabetics, you'll find a fair bit on it relating to diabetes. I don't think it's extremely important in normal people, as the conditions have to be right for it to happen.