Repetitions per set?

[Jackamaideshwang]

I can't beleive I'm asking this, but in all of the hypertrophy workout programs and literature the prescribed workload is about 3x12-15 with a couple of exercises per body part. The reps is what's getting my goat. In the strength programs with low reps, and a real emphasis on not working to concentric failure I'm fine, I do the 3x5 or 4x3 whatever it is in full, every rep in every set. For the hypertrophy however (3x12-15) I usually get about 12 in my first set, 9 or 10 in my second and 6-8 in my third, going untill concentric failure in every set. So really, I never do 3x12, its more like a pyramid type thing, except I'm not changing the weight at all.

Should I be doing the full 12 reps in all 3 sets and only really going to failure in the second and/or third set, or should I keep going to failure every set and just decrease the weight each time, keeping in mind I'm not planning on using any special bodybuilding programming techniques, just what's plainly recommended. Long rests aren't an option as the supposed best rest time for hypertrophy is 1-2 mins. I may just have a poor glycolytic system for some reason.

[Aiden Bloodaxe]

If you've been doing 5's as long as I have(whole of my training "career"[14months]) & then you try doing 20s with 70% give or take of your 1RM, it's nigh on impossible even though it should be able to be done. At least with the bigger movements that is.

Hell, squatting a set of 12 is a challenge for me too.

As for your Q, I'm not all that sure.

[DarkXacreD]

Why don't you decrease the weight a little bit?

[Less than Dan]

I can't beleive I'm asking this, but in all of the hypertrophy workout programs and literature the prescribed workload is about 3x12-15 with a couple of exercises per body part. The reps is what's getting my goat. In the strength programs with low reps, and a real emphasis on not working to concentric failure I'm fine, I do the 3x5 or 4x3 whatever it is in full, every rep in every set. For the hypertrophy however (3x12-15) I usually get about 12 in my first set, 9 or 10 in my second and 6-8 in my third, going untill concentric failure in every set. So really, I never do 3x12, its more like a pyramid type thing, except I'm not changing the weight at all.

Should I be doing the full 12 reps in all 3 sets and only really going to failure in the second and/or third set, or should I keep going to failure every set and just decrease the weight each time, keeping in mind I'm not planning on using any special bodybuilding programming techniques, just what's plainly recommended. Long rests aren't an option as the supposed best rest time for hypertrophy is 1-2 mins. I may just have a poor glycolytic system for some reason.

That's actually a really good question that I wish to have some light shed on by some of the more experienced lifters/more knowledgable folks around here. I always made it somewhat of a point to superset 5x5's (primarily for lats) or do 5x5's for compounds, and 3x12-14s usually went to isolates.

[Ashtar]

You could maintain the heavy weight and then do drop sets (immediately switch to a lighter weight and continue reps) for the hypertrophy/endurance thing.

It's kind of amazing once you hit the wall with a heavy weight how quickly you do so successively with lighter weights.

[compleks]

What you're doing is fine. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

You are working till failure which means your muscles will adapt and grow, provided you're eating to support growth.

[Caveman]

Depends on the lift, for big compound movements I generally wouldn't go to failure, if you really wanted to then only on your last set, failing on the big lifts is heavy on the CNS etc.

Another thing I like to do is aim for a rep range rather than a specific rep amount, such as I'm going to aim to 30 reps in sets of 8-12, so for the first set you may get 12, then you get 10 then you get 8, and you've still done 30 reps in that rep range, rather than aiming for 3x10 and only ending up doing 10,9,7 or something like that.

[Jackamaideshwang]

If you've been doing 5's as long as I have(whole of my training "career"[14months]) & then you try doing 20s with 70% give or take of your 1RM, it's nigh on impossible even though it should be able to be done. At least with the bigger movements that is.

Hell, squatting a set of 12 is a challenge for me too.

As for your Q, I'm not all that sure.
I was doing the same dam hypertrophy routine for like 2 and a half years from when I started weight training. It's always been the same though, the endurance doesn't seem to increase. I've got a feeling I've constantly been over-reaching too much, and not experiencing the gains I could have (after 2 and a half years I still had pretty dismal progression). Like in a strength routine, if you put the weight up too far, you can't complete all the reps, then you're constantly playing catch-up with a much slower progression than if you were patient and did it a bit smarter.

Why don't you decrease the weight a little bit?
This seems like the only option, i'm getting too impatient and want to move up too quick.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/bonus_custom_hypertrophy_progression
This site gives you the full info. E.g:
Monday: 4x6 with an 8RM.
Wednesday: 3x9 with an 11RM.
Friday: 3x12 with a 14RM.

Notice that the reps in each set is always less than the RM, implying the first set at least isn't to failure, with the third most likely to failure and second being variable.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You could maintain the heavy weight and then do drop sets (immediately switch to a lighter weight and continue reps) for the hypertrophy/endurance thing.

It's kind of amazing once you hit the wall with a heavy weight how quickly you do so successively with lighter weights.
I think I'll do that when I decide to switch it up. I've just started a hypertrophy routine (possibly much better than the previous one), and I was planning on doing a normal base routine to see how it works, then start to use drop sets and other techniques after about 6 or 8 weeks to change it up.

Depends on the lift, for big compound movements I generally wouldn't go to failure, if you really wanted to then only on your last set, failing on the big lifts is heavy on the CNS etc.

Another thing I like to do is aim for a rep range rather than a specific rep amount, such as I'm going to aim to 30 reps in sets of 8-12, so for the first set you may get 12, then you get 10 then you get 8, and you've still done 30 reps in that rep range, rather than aiming for 3x10 and only ending up doing 10,9,7 or something like that.
Touche. My major compound lifts are leaned toward strength based, yet for some reason I still don't get all the reps in, such a bad habit.
The rep scheme you said makes sense, and I think it's in chicanerous' write-up in the table, with the optimal number of repetitions etc. On second look, its got in the hypertrophy section to occasionally reach concentric failure.
I think I'll drop the weight and complete all the required reps, which would definately help when deciding when to up the weight so I dont over-reach too far. I'll look into what's most influential in a routine for hypertrophy as well, be it time that your muscles are working, number of sets, number of total repetitions, work done or whatever else if I can find some good info.

[Jackamaideshwang]

I'm guessing it'd work pretty much the same as a strength routine, with progressive resistance, only theres more volume and emphasis on eccentric contractions. If anyone has any other ideas, speak up!

[chicanerous]

- lower the weight
- lengthen the rest period
- don't artificially slow your reps
- on the other hand, control peak force by not maximally accelerating them

Because I'm too lazy to reexplain the last point:

I'm more of the Waterbury camp (http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_secret_to_motor_unit_recruitment&cr=) of controlled eccentrics and fast as possible (under control) concentrics. Mix up volumes and weights to change speed, don't intentionally slow down reps.

I was in this camp until I ran Smolov and started controlling the peak force in my reps by not maximally accelerating my concentrics. It's quite surprising how much this change increased my ability to put further volume in at higher percentages of my 1-RM. While I don't think this is the method is anywhere near optimal for developing power, I think this is very beneficial in any exercise or phase of a routine where the goal is mainly structural adaptation. It also seems to have some use when the focus is purely strength development if it's accompanied by volume at high percentages of your maximum. So, I've been adopting it lately for any voluminous assistance that I do, as it's not nearly as hard on the nervous system, allowing me to put more effort toward where it's needed when it's needed -- the quick lifts themselves.

controlling the peak force in my reps by not maximally accelerating my concentricsWhat exactly do you mean by this, Chico?

When you maximally accelerate a rep, at anything less than a maximal load, you're applying more force than needed to actually move the weight; hence, it accelerates. The more it accelerates, the greater the peak force you're able to generate. In contrast, if you're trying to get heavy volume in, I think it's very beneficial to use a low acceleration, as you will fatigue a bit more slowly but, more important, be able to put in more sets without seeing as drastic a drop off in performance. (Obviously, rest periods factor into this as well.) You won't reach the same peak forces, as the acceleration will be low, but the corresponding increase in volume at high percentages of your maximum can positively effect both potential for hypertrophy and strength. I'm talking about peak force because I don't necessarily mean to slow the rep down on purpose; I just mean, for example, to use only ~80% force if you're lifting 80% of your maximum.

This is also important if you're trying to maximize your rep total for any kind of heavy endurance squatting or deadlifting.

[chicanerous]

Another thing I like to do is aim for a rep range rather than a specific rep amount, such as I'm going to aim to 30 reps in sets of 8-12, so for the first set you may get 12, then you get 10 then you get 8, and you've still done 30 reps in that rep range, rather than aiming for 3x10 and only ending up doing 10,9,7 or something like that.
This is also a beneficial method, though I'm not a fan of your exact implementation. I find it even better to only specify a weight and rep total and then terminate a set when bar speed noticeably slows.

Doing rest periods by heart rate can also be a good addition to this. You can pretty easily scale intensity between workouts and maintain it during them this way.

[Jackamaideshwang]

Awesome, thanks for that. So by that I'm assuming you mean to complete all the desired reps in the set.
The Waterbury dude seems to be forgetting that as smaller muscle fibres/motor units fatigue, more are recruited to get the job done, so you could still use all your motor units in longer sets and slower reps.

[chicanerous]

Awesome, thanks for that. So by that I'm assuming you mean to complete all the desired reps in the set.
Yes.

The Waterbury dude seems to be forgetting that as smaller muscle fibres/motor units fatigue, more are recruited to get the job done, so you could still use all your motor units in longer sets and slower reps.
He's not really forgetting. He's just appealing to an audience who wants to be strong and powerful overall, gain muscle, lose fat, and look good at the same time, while making things as easy as possible for them to get right. Unless I'm mixing up authors, he usually combines his maximally accelerated lifting with the method I outlined in my second post, which ends up working quite well.

[Jackamaideshwang]

It seems like it'd be good for overall performance, but his whole justification of bar speed and motor unit recruitment with increases in gains seems a tad one sided and simplistic, but maybe thats just because it was in T-mag or T-nation or some other testosterone based website.
Thanks for your help dude.

[Ashtar]

I think eating to support growth is the biggest problem, because sometimes I end up weaker a couple days after doing much harder stuff.

[Jackamaideshwang]

It takes a good few of weeks to regain full strength after a heavy session. A couple of days after a heavy session the muscles are still inflamed/damaged/remodelling so it makes sense not to be at full strength. Diet would have an effect on recovery, I think depending on the amount of protein used for energy during that workout and maybe the effect of the food on the immune system/GH.