Flash kick attempt

[Crackx]

Hello everyone, i tried yesterday some "backtuck with one foot", to start feeling a little bit more the flash kick... Am i wrong? Well, in fact my "pseudo flash kick" is really bad; even my kicking leg isn't stretch... Even tough i've read flash kick tutorials and scanned through the forum, i don't really happen to open my chest like a backhandspring, or put my hips forward...

Link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9YrGYrGKP4

Of course, i've got my non-tucked backflip pretty easy :/

Warmly.

[JordanW]

Arch your back like in the back handspring or back layout.

http://www.justtheskills.com/index.php?act=show_guide&v_id=5

http://www.justtheskills.com/guideimages/FlashKick/Demo_FlashKick_0005.jpg

You can really see him arching his back in that picture.

[Crackx]

God ! For sure he arched ! It's easier to kick with that arch you're right..

[JordanW]

Hehe let me know if you get it now then :).

[Sakanem]

Looks like you're going for a rocket boy =)

[MeatMachine]

You're not utilising the most of your jump- looks like your arms are reaching the peak of their movement before your legs actually push off the ground.

[EmpRitz]

Read skillzat's tutorial over and over again
and make sure your go up and not back

[Crackx]

Thanks mates : ) I will try to improve it, and i'll refresh my post later when it will be better. : )

[Crackx]

Bump !

Heh i tryed again that flash kick... But with a round-off before, i noticed that it gives me more heigh (buy your joke). Well, then i arch my back like you all said... Throw my head over (maybe too much haha), but now i think i must concentrate on my kick... XD Mine can't be call a kick, i just bring my leg slightly : s can't do 3 things same time i'm blond haired boy sorryyyyy :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNLm9RE6IZA

Warmly.

[HaoTwo]

You wanna chamber that kick to make it an actual kick. Right now it just looks like a standard layout. If you watch Juji's new Flash Kick tutorial he bends his non-kicking leg to the outside.

I can't describe it here but that helps a shit load. Also when you kick, you want the kick to come ALL THE WAY AROUND back to the floor

[Yuri]

first of all, use your arms to set

secondly, as was already stated, you need to actively trail the other leg, either back or to the side. the more it is tucker the better the kick will look

[EmpRitz]

You are leaning back, don't. Arch and drive your chest UP (really shove your chest strait up air) and use your arms to set your height. Also drive that kick HARD until the end of the trick.

[Less than Dan]

The biggest mistake that people have when first learning the flash kick is that they liken it to the back tuck; in practice, the flash kick is actually much more related to the back hand spring with a step out.

Therefore, for the best results, practice backhandspring step outs, getting them faster and faster, and then throwing them higher and higher until your hands no longer touch the ground. You'll have a VERY aesthetically pleasing and high flash kick that takes advantage of the body's natural hip flexor range of motion.

For more information, refer to the advice on this page:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Gymnastics-2245/2009/4/layout-step.htm

Good luck!

[EmpRitz]

The biggest mistake that people have when first learning the flash kick is that they liken it to the back tuck; in practice, the flash kick is actually much more related to the back hand spring with a step out.


I am going to have to disagree.

I see what your saying that you don't keep your head looking forward and your back strait on your flash kick which is similar to a bhs and you are right treating your flash like a backtuck isn't going to work. But a bhs you lean back and jump backwards onto your hands, in a flashkick your arch your chest up towards the sky. Even though you are trying to arch, you are still jumping strait up as as opposed to leaning and jumping backwards on the bhs. This is (one of) Crackx's problems, he is leaning his entire upper body back like a bhs, an not arching his chest up towards the sky.

[Less than Dan]

That's exactly why I said that it's related, not exactly like a back hand spring. Of course it shares the same traits as a back tuck, being an up and down motion, as well as not placing the hands on the ground. However, in proper execution, the flash kick is a back layout step out of gymnastics execution, which the pre-requisite for that move is, obviously, the backhandspring step out.

Observe. The most effective and powerful flashkicks are actually back layout stepouts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ks5ZFV8qEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQo7BknIZrE

Notice how the back layout step out/flash kick typically proceeds the back hand spring step out? It's because it's the same skill, but without hands.

I simply want to teach the poster of this thread the most effective and most beneficial way of preforming this skill. Preforming this skill as a back tuck that kicks and lands on one foot doesn't take advantage of any of the synergistic properties of the muscles of the hip flexor, quads, and lower back, which means you're losing A LOT of power and form.

[EmpRitz]

Observe. The most effective and powerful flashkicks are actually back layout stepouts:


Sort of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDPLYEeWXEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8V-VUJjons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG6BGhDmqoY&feature=related
http://www.vimeo.com/5030990

Lets start here, layout vs whipback:
In gymnastis a layout is a layed out backflip, meaning you jump strait up and set your height, then flip and land (ideally) in the same place you jumped from. The point of layout is to be high and floaty and your chest should be directly over your legs at take off in order to ensure this. A whipback is basically a bhs without hands. You jump backwards and whip your legs over your head. you want to be low and fast and travel backward a good distance, mimicking a bhs. To do this your chest should be behind your legs (leaning back) at take off. The biggest visual difference here is going to be height which means layouts and whipbacks will look very similar when preformed by most trickers, seeing as most trickers do not set their flips properly.

What you showed are whipback stepouts not layout stepouts and my point is that a true layout stepout would be a proper (non-chambered) flashkick which is what Anis and my other examples do. The whipback stepout you showed would be considered a flashkick in tricking terms so you certainly can flashkick by not putting your hands down on a bhs stepout, but they will be low and much whippier. I (and i assume majority of other human beings) find the higher more powerful flashkick to be more pleasing to the eye.

So if you want really low flashkicks, then just bhs stepout and don't put your hands down. But to gain the height, power, and appeal of the flashkicks I showed, you need to arch up (strait up, chest to the sky), set your height, and then flip. Arching centers your chest over your feet allowing to you jump high and hence higher flashkick while still allowing you the use the characteristics whip of the hips.

Just try it, stand strait up and jump, then lean back and jump, which one do you go higher on?

If you want to do low whippy flashkicks, more power to you man, go for it. But I really can't let you tell a new tricker that that it is the most "effective and powerful" way to flashkick, when it clearly isn't.

[Less than Dan]

I like this, this is an excellent discussion on philosophy :) I'm glad to be discussing this with you, man.

I'll be able to provide a response once I get back from the gym. However, I would like to say that the flashkicks provided above by Anis are excellent (except for Eigos, I never really liked his flashkick, it's a prime example of a 'back tuck with a leg stuck out' in that video), but take much more practice, strength, and time to reach that level of quality than pursuing the move as a back layout stepout.

Also, another note: who said that you had to do a back layout stepout low to the ground? I do mine jumping straight up, but with the heavy arch of the upper back like a back hand spring and release of the hips like a back hand spring. I certainly know my back tucks and flashes are not at all low, and the synergistic effects of the muscles when applying the principles of the BHS stepout are obvious; the kick comes out by itself without any intrinsic thought or extrinsic effort.

I would never say you're wrong. You're right, in fact: you're speaking of and defending the conventional flash kick, a staple and well studied trick in our every day scheme of things. However, I just want to apply the science that I've experienced and observed from gymnastics, which is a specific area of focus for tricks; why not try to teach what has been so effective and 'textbook' for hundreds of years? There is a reason why these techniques are so commonly found in the Olympics :)

[Less than Dan]

Also, I think that you're unaware that I didn't name the skill "layout step out"; that's the actual name used in gymnastics. I'm also aware that a layout is supposed to be rigid and straight with the rotation coming either from the heel drive (front) or rounding of the shoulders (back). Once again, the layout step out is NOT a whipback! Flashkick =! Whipback. However, there are principles within the backhandspring step out and whipback that play into the scientific performance of the flashkick, and therefore, as I must stress yet again, they are related.

Let me break this down:

The way that Anis performs his standing flash, if you look closely, actually resembles a one legged pike. There is no arch, no contraction of the glutes, erector spinae, illiosoas, or all that much movement of the hip flexor. He's using his quad and hamstring entirely; it's actually impressive, because he's focusing a massive amount of strength into two muscle groups, instead of using more than double the muscle groups a gymanst would use, along with their synergistic properties, to create a massive extension of the leg. However, would I recommend that someone learn the flash like that? Hell no. Why make the move not only harder to do, but why also eliminate the use of so many resources that you naturally have? Why use only two muscle groups instead of EIGHT if you count the lats in the dropping of the shoulders, the grastronemuius if you point the foot, and the abdominals to synergize the erector spinae in the pull of the kick? Eight muscle groups working in harmony in comparison to only two. It's simply baffling to condone NOT using every available muscle.

When a gymnast performs a 'layout' stepout, as it's called (our equivelent to the flashkick), they're using the hamstrings, quads, soleus+gastronemeius, and glutes, as well as the hip flexors to power their kick, as well as the lats to drop the shoulders in order to allow the illiosoas, erector spinae, abdominals+obliques to work together in a single, extremely high powered and stable contraction that pulls the body and kick through. The result is more power with less effort; would you expect to bench press more weight by just using your triceps to extend, or using your triceps, deltoids, AND pectorials to extend? It's basic muscle physiology: the more synergists within a muscle contraction, the stronger the resulting output.

Another note: learning the flashkick this way makes pop flashes, roundoff flashes, and gainer flashes MUCH easier; it's more effective in the long run for tricks, AND it translates well into other, much more difficult moves.

So let me restate my thesis one more time: when teaching someone the flash kick, I would recommend the method that is easier, stronger, more physiologically effecient due to the use of far more muscle groups. You can argue which one is more desirable, which one is more related to which move, and so on, but it's extremely difficult to argue against muscle physiology and the human anatomy.

Read skillzat's tutorial over and over again
and make sure your go up and not back

Also, I'm very curious to why you endorse Skilzat's tutorial when he also endorses the very same ideas I do about the flash kick...

[EmpRitz]

I'm glad to be discussing this with you too :salutes:

I agree we trickers should learn everything we can from gymnasts' who are shit loads better at tumbling than we are, but its important to note that there is no flashkick in gymnastic. Whipback/layout stepouts are close but still very different. Whipback stepouts don't chamber for a kick and they strive to be lower and whippy not high and floaty like a flashkick. Whipback stepouts also strive to travel backwards across and carry momentum in the the next move like a bhs. Flashkick try to land in the as close. These are important distinctions because the purpose of the two tricks is radically different. The flashkick is supposed to be a massively high, awe inspiring end to a tumble pass, the whipback/layout stepout is used a momentum builder to lead up to a finishing trick. Its just like a bhs and a backtuck. So trying to use whipback/layout stepout technique on a flashkick seems rather silly seeing as the moves have very different functions and standards of excellence.

Now there is something very useful we can learn from gymnastics for flashkick and that is set your height by conventionally arching the chest up to the sky. You are right that its might be easier to do a flashkick as a whipback stepout, but I really feel that you shouldn't take the easy road out and settle for a low flashkick. Work hard and train for the the high, best flashkick you can. The flashkick is a staple of tricking and is one of the oldest tricks out there. Trickers have found the most effective way to get height and power in your flashkick and have applied it beautifully.

More muslces use doens't mean a better trick. As you said a bhs uses a whole lot more muscles then a backflip, but if you tried to backflip with a bhs setup it would suck. More muscles will produce a faster flashkick but faster doesn't mean better. The best flashkick are high and floaty (aka slow) with a powerful kick. So yes I would advise learning a flashkick using less muscles, because that is how a proper flashkick is preformed, using less muslces then a whipback stepout. This is because as I said above, a flashkick and a whipback/layout stepout fit an entirely different purpose then a flashkick.

I used to lean back too much into my flashkicks, I have fixed that and I have not only higher flashkicks but easier and more powerful ones as well.



Also, I'm very curious to why you endorse Skilzat's tutorial when he also endorses the very same ideas I do about the flash kick...

Skilzat's`flashkick tutorial:

Now comes time to jump. Similar to the Back Flip, you want to jump straight upwards. Direct your energy straight up, in a straight, vertical line. Don't try leaning back.

Difference Between Arching Back and Leaning Back

Ok just since I'm always preaching to arch but not to lean or whatever I should clarify the difference. Arching your back means just that: your back archs, and your head is tilted back. Leaning back on the other hand, is actually pull backwards, like pulling your back down and backwards. Leaning back makes arching back somewhat easy, but it depends.
You see I always say not to lean back (too much, you'll have to a little usually) when jumping into a move because what does this do? It means you're not directing your energy upwards! You're pulling your anatomy downwards and back. You can still arch backwards though, while still directing your energy upwards. Of course, you won't jump as high into the air as when you're head is neutral, but arching helps some moves look and feel right, and is required for quite a few. Plus, you can arch on moves that aren't even flips, this creates it's own look, and may or may not hurt that move.
Leaning back while taking off is generally only useful on moves where you want your head close to the ground or if you want to put your hands on the ground, like Back Handspring.
But, what if you've already jumped and you're up in the air already? Can you lean back then? Sure, it depends though. In some moves, this helps you flip faster, since you're sorta whipping yourself back. Think about it, since you've already jumped, and directe your energy upwards, now leaning back will flip you in the air, instead of making you jump backwards, sweet! It doesn't have an application in many moves though.

[Yuri]

David Elson, who in my opinion has one of the best flashkicks explained it really well

he said to set as if you were going to do a really high 3/4 back to your belly, but then to kick really hard to complete the rotation to your feet


1:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scmB-JlmdPY&feature=channel_page

[Less than Dan]

I'm glad to be discussing this with you too :salutes:

I agree we trickers should learn everything we can from gymnasts' who are shit loads better at tumbling than we are, but its important to note that there is no flashkick in gymnastic. Whipback/layout stepouts are close but still very different. Whipback stepouts don't chamber for a kick and they strive to be lower and whippy not high and floaty like a flashkick. Whipback stepouts also strive to travel backwards across and carry momentum in the the next move like a bhs. Flashkick try to land in the as close. These are important distinctions because the purpose of the two tricks is radically different. The flashkick is supposed to be a massively high, awe inspiring end to a tumble pass, the whipback/layout stepout is used a momentum builder to lead up to a finishing trick. Its just like a bhs and a backtuck. So trying to use whipback/layout stepout technique on a flashkick seems rather silly seeing as the moves have very different functions and standards of excellence.

Now there is something very useful we can learn from gymnastics for flashkick and that is set your height by conventionally arching the chest up to the sky. You are right that its might be easier to do a flashkick as a whipback stepout, but I really feel that you shouldn't take the easy road out and settle for a low flashkick. Work hard and train for the the high, best flashkick you can. The flashkick is a staple of tricking and is one of the oldest tricks out there. Trickers have found the most effective way to get height and power in your flashkick and have applied it beautifully.

More muslces use doens't mean a better trick. As you said a bhs uses a whole lot more muscles then a backflip, but if you tried to backflip with a bhs setup it would suck. More muscles will produce a faster flashkick but faster doesn't mean better. The best flashkick are high and floaty (aka slow) with a powerful kick. So yes I would advise learning a flashkick using less muscles, because that is how a proper flashkick is preformed, using less muslces then a whipback stepout. This is because as I said above, a flashkick and a whipback/layout stepout fit an entirely different purpose then a flashkick.

I used to lean back too much into my flashkicks, I have fixed that and I have not only higher flashkicks but easier and more powerful ones as well.




Skilzat's`flashkick tutorial:

Touche on the Skilzat tutorial; I stand corrected :) Thank you for the clarification!

[EmpRitz]

Touche on the Skilzat tutorial; I stand corrected :) Thank you for the clarification!

Well thanks for the debate, it was fun :good:

[Crackx]

Wo you put some trouble in my mind hehe. Well i will try once, with FIRST putting my self UP (i see that i really need more height) and arch without bringing that non kicking leg to me... It'll may be hard !!!

Anyway thanks for all thoses psychico-physical-behaviouring tips mates !

Warmly.